Vox Embassy

[N35t0r]

Unless they spot us, the only indication they'll have is our rising power graph. We can always cook up a decoy 'there's war on the other continent, we're sending troops to take advantage of/help the weak civ' to keep them off balance for a couple of turns...

[binTravkin]

Unless they spot us, the only indication they'll have is our rising power graph. We can always cook up a decoy 'there's war on the other continent, we're sending troops to take advantage of/help the weak civ' to keep them off balance for a couple of turns...

It is unlikely they will ask for explanation at all and us pushing it to them wont do any good for credibility.
If Bananas and GS are cooperating, GS will make Bananas believe we are gearing up for war and maybe even help them by a tech or two.

[Impaler[WrG]]

I had another chat with Jhon Miller of Vox and things were rather disastrous. I told JM the strait up trade was unlikely but we were thinking of covertly gifting them techs to support them. He then asked about us trading with GS (a question I had dodged in prior conversations) and just gave him the strait answer that 'of course were trading with them' at which point he completely melted down and started accusing us of being allied with GS against them and basically being fools who were playing into their hands. I quite nearly lost my temper trying to explain the real politics of the situation to him but he never managed to grasp it. I think the Vox relationship may be badly damaged now but they cant really change their course of action which is to just desperately cling to life and hope for the best. I've got half a mind to just crush them last and achieve total continental domination.

Here is the full transcript of the quite lengthy conversation


Session Start (kenferland:Jon Miller): Thu Apr 19 17:11:57 2007
[17:11] Jon Miller: you there now/
[17:12] KenFerland: hey JM
[17:12] Jon Miller: hey, how is it going?
[17:12] Jon Miller: any news from AC?
[17:13] KenFerland: well their was some reluctance from my team mates, they dont see much value in HBR
[17:13] Jon Miller: it depends on your strategy some, I agree
[17:13] Jon Miller: but ther is a large advantage beaker wise
[17:13] KenFerland: Theirs also concern about revealing our selves to GS, they would see if we both got a bump in tech score
[17:14] KenFerland: so I think a direct trade is unlikly in the near future
[17:14] Jon Miller: they can see what you have anyways
[17:14] Jon Miller: just like we can
[17:14] Jon Miller: but I can't see how anyone could fault you for it, it is a trade advantage on your part
[17:14] KenFerland: yea and they would easily deduce a trade between us
[17:15] Jon Miller: well, but it is your advantage... and they haven't asked you not to trade with us, have they?
[17:15] KenFerland: well they basicaly said point blank when we fist meet that giving any material suppor to you was forbiden if we wanted to be friendly
[17:16] Jon Miller: this isnt' giving material support
[17:16] Jon Miller: this is a trade, it isn't like you are gifting us anything
[17:16] Jon Miller: if we are already froze out, if you guys are already allied against us, what chance do we have?
[17:17] Jon Miller: would you trade with GS?
[17:17] KenFerland: oh I think they would see it otherwise, anyways they clearly forbaide trading with you
[17:17] Jon Miller: yeah, so you are already their allies, their junior partners
[17:18] KenFerland: we arnt alied against you, were maininting oportunistic nutrality
[17:18] Jon Miller: how is not trading with us neutrality?
[17:19] Jon Miller: it sounds like you are just doing what GS requests... it seems that even when they are the 3rd weakest civ on our continent, they still direct the rest of you
[17:19] KenFerland: We havent desided yet what the ultimate course of action will be with respect to the south
[17:19] Jon Miller: I don't see how we have a chance, if you are already acting against us
[17:19] KenFerland: we want to be dominant ofcorse but havent desided just how to get their yet
[17:20] Jon Miller: you dont' be dominant by obeying the directions of your competitors
[17:20] Jon Miller: and by picking sides to make them stronger, at your own disadvantage
[17:20] KenFerland: their clearly a 'attack GS and allie with Vox' path avalibe to use
[17:20] Jon Miller: and neutrality, which would include trading with us
[17:21] KenFerland: As I said a ways back were still interested in keeping Vox viable
[17:22] KenFerland: We might try to arrange some means of sending you techs in an undetectable mannor
[17:22] Jon Miller: well, being froze out of trades and the like isn't viable
[17:23] KenFerland: whats your current ETA to IW?
[17:23] Jon Miller: a while
[17:23] KenFerland: I've proposed that we gift you IW at the point you would normaly research it as you research a second tech of longer duration
[17:24] Jon Miller: but that is already that we are disadvantaged... like we aren't part of the community
[17:24] KenFerland: GS could not detect that by score analysis untill the second tech is completed
[17:26] KenFerland: were interested in more covert support methods right now
[17:26] Jon Miller: trading isn't support
[17:26] Jon Miller: we ask that you don't trade with GS either, as long as you don't trade with us
[17:27] KenFerland: do you think you would be willing to trust us for a deal like that?
[17:27] KenFerland: switching to a second tech such as Monarchy and then being gifted IW at the point you would otherwize research it yourself
[17:28] Jon Miller: I would have to discuss it with my people
[17:28] Jon Miller: but really, would you trade with GS?
[17:28] KenFerland: ofcourse
[17:28] Jon Miller: how is that fair?
[17:28] Jon Miller: to trade with GS and not to trade with us?
[17:28] Jon Miller: isn't it supporting GS against us?
[17:29] Jon Miller: I mean, basically you are allied with GS against us, I don't see how that is fair or how we can trust you
[17:29] KenFerland: were most likly going to be gifting you guys techs at some point in the future including the stuff we get from GS
[17:30] KenFerland: Its really you best bet to get back in the game
[17:30] Jon Miller: but that isn't how it is now, is it?
[17:30] Jon Miller: are we that far out? you not trading with us and trading with GS is pushing us farher out of the game
[17:31] KenFerland: We dont want to tip our hands yet, I'm already revealing quite a bit to you as is
[17:31] Jon Miller: so you will support our enemies so as to not reveal your hand? how in the world does that help us?
[17:33] KenFerland: Well to be quite frank its good for AC first and formost, it also will ultimatly help Vox
[17:33] Jon Miller: in fact, that is about the opposite of helping us
[17:34] Jon Miller: then why act against us and against your interest but in GS interest by not trading with us?
[17:36] KenFerland: Were quite able to interprit what is in our long term interests, when and if we feel the time is right we may openly assist Vox with tech and a military contingent sent to the south but we are keeping all our options open as long as possible
[17:36] KenFerland: most are willing to assist you covertly right now so you will have to accept that for the time being
[17:36] Jon Miller: you are just sitting right in GS's pocket, while they get stronger at Vox's expense... because they cfan trade and we can't
[17:37] Jon Miller: how is the world is it fair that they trade and we can't?
[17:37] Jon Miller: I mean, how do you expect us to compete?
[17:37] Jon Miller: I mean, we might as well surrender to them now, 3 against 1 isn't a chance
[17:38] KenFerland: I'm hoping we can get an agreement soon for covert assistence to you and as things develop over the next few turns AC may decide to cross the threshold and commit itself to hostility towards GS
[17:39] Jon Miller: well, currently you are acting like you are allied to GS
[17:39] Jon Miller: when you choose to do differently, contact me
[17:39] KenFerland: firstly you guys have 1 low cost tech we desire, trading between us at this point is esentialy charity
[17:39] Jon Miller: there is a higher level tech
[17:39] Jon Miller: it isn't charity
[17:39] Jon Miller: and definitely wouldn't appear as such to GS
[17:39] KenFerland: we dont yet want or need HBR
[17:40] Jon Miller: right, but does GS know that?
[17:40] Jon Miller: and it does give you more options
[17:40] KenFerland: and your tech rate is the lowest on the continent
[17:40] Jon Miller: we have been trying to expand after getting boxed by GS early
[17:40] Jon Miller: you freezing us out here is just harming us (and helping GS) more
[17:41] KenFerland: yes I know your in tough times
[17:41] Jon Miller: especially with every Civ in the continent acting against us
[17:42] Jon Miller: supporting GS getting stronger, supporting GS taking more nice terrain (Which you already commented about)
[17:42] KenFerland: When were able to openly support you, you WILL be thankfull I assure you
[17:42] Jon Miller: what I don't see is why you are so scared of GS
[17:43] KenFerland: Were prudent not scared
[17:43] Jon Miller: and so act in their best interestes
[17:44] Jon Miller: do you also give them advantageous tech deals? maybe tell them what we are doing and thinking?
[17:45] KenFerland: We tell them what we want them to know
[17:45] Jon Miller:
[17:46] KenFerland: I've told you much more in hopes that it would keep you guys going but you seem to think too little of our strategic vision
[17:46] Jon Miller: your strategic vision seems to be to help GS
[17:46] KenFerland: Need I point to the score graph to show whos ahead in this game
[17:47] Jon Miller: yeah, they is why I don't see why you are helping GS
[17:47] KenFerland: we know what were doing and are playing to win, Vox can help us and come in second place if it wants to
[17:48] Jon Miller: playing to win is good, helping GS to win and you will get yourself in trouble
[17:49] Jon Miller: I can understand how helping GS to win helps you to win if they are your ally...
[17:49] Jon Miller: I don't tihnk that is wise with GS, they are very skillful
[17:49] KenFerland: ok this isn't going anyware JM if you continue to make all these acusations
[17:50] Jon Miller: it is just your behavior
[17:50] Jon Miller: as I said, if you change your mind, I would be more than happy to talk
[17:50] KenFerland: do you want our assistence or not
[17:50] Jon Miller: assistance is nice, fairness is better than working against us though
[17:51] KenFerland: clearly GS wants to wipe you out, I really dont see how you guys have any choice
[17:51] Jon Miller: especially not with you helping them
[17:51] Jon Miller: if we had axemen in 10 turns it would better to repel their cats
[17:52] Jon Miller: if we dont' have axemen in 10 turns, then it will be tougher
[17:52] KenFerland: JM if we were really commited to seeing you defeated why would I be hear talking with you
[17:52] Jon Miller: I don't think you are commited to seeing us defeated, I just think that you have allwoed yourself to be talked into a strategy that isnt' in your interest or ours by GS
[17:53] Jon Miller: that strategy will likely aid GS into getting first place
[17:54] KenFerland: Ok just convey my thoughts on the covert tech gifting this isn't really going anyware
[17:55] Jon Miller: no, we will face a GS that has open trades while being blockaded against on our own
[17:55] Jon Miller: I guess
[17:55] KenFerland: I can understand your afriad of GS but all this "You are fools playing into GS hands" is franky insulting
[17:56] Jon Miller: you trade with GS, you don't trade wiuth US, you say you are our freinds
[17:56] Jon Miller: do you think we are stupid
[17:56] Jon Miller: maybe GS promised you territory/etc, I don't know
[17:56] KenFerland: No your not and neither are we
[17:57] Jon Miller: wel;l, then you are behaving like our enemies, why should I beleive you when you say you are not?
[17:58] KenFerland: You really think we should cease trading with the second most technologicaly advanced team on this continent simply because your team is their enemy and we might be hostile with GS some day
[18:00] KenFerland: Were continuing to grow more powerfull by trading and our good managment is moving us further and further ahead, the stronger we become the less we have to fear an attack from the other continent in the future should it be forged into a single empire
[18:00] Jon Miller: well, why should you quit trading with us unless you are GS's ally?
[18:01] Jon Miller: that is what is the truth
[18:01] KenFerland: cause we feel were getting the better end of the stick in these trades and are made more powerfull by them both in absolute and relative terms
[18:01] Jon Miller: so you are our enemy, at least right now
[18:02] Jon Miller: thanks for telling me, if you change your mind, contact us
[18:02] KenFerland: You assume trading is somekind of guarantee of perpetualy coperation
[18:02] Jon Miller: not trading with us (*at their behest) is cooperating us against us
[18:02] Jon Miller: and basically, I do feel like the fool now because I told you lots of stuff
[18:03] KenFerland: Oh come on JM were the only friends you have on this continent
[18:03] Jon Miller: I Thought you were
[18:03] Jon Miller: you aren't behaving as our freinds
[18:04] Jon Miller: so I don't see hwo you can keep claiming to be
[18:04] Jon Miller: if fact, you rae behaving as our enemies
[18:05] Jon Miller: gifting stuff to us is an example of freindly behavior
[18:05] Jon Miller: trading with us is an example of neutral behavior
[18:05] Jon Miller: not trading at the behest of our enemies is ane xample of hostile behavior
[18:06] KenFerland: JM your really being unreasonable
[18:06] Jon Miller: I wish for you guys to be freindly or at least neutral, but I admit I don't know what else more to say
[18:06] Jon Miller: being unreasonable to ask to be treated as a full standing Civ? not as GS's future conquest?
[18:07] KenFerland: Vox is seriously weak everyone knows it, you cant expect to be treated like a major power
[18:07] Jon Miller: how about being treated as independent
[18:07] Jon Miller: not as your allies future subjects
[18:08] KenFerland: Were looking at a situation like the Russians and Chinnese supporting the Vietnemese
[18:08] Jon Miller: yeah, and that isn't how it is
[18:09] Jon Miller: we aren't asking you to act against GS (well, we are, but nevermind that now), we are asking you to trade with us
[18:09] Jon Miller: which is neutral behavior
[18:09] KenFerland: Were going to show more deference to the major powers on the continent and weigh our own self preservation as the highest priority
[18:10] Jon Miller: if we are already being treated as if we dont' exist, how can we survive?
[18:10] Jon Miller: and so you doom us, I guess our only hope than is to seek a wway off this continent
[18:10] Jon Miller: I Am sorry, I have been extremely bitte
[18:10] Jon Miller: rI was hoping for a freind, I expected neutrality
[18:10] KenFerland: bitte?
[18:10] Jon Miller: I didn't expect a stab in the nback
[18:11] KenFerland: AC never promised you trades or that we would not trade with GS
[18:12] Jon Miller: trading with us in neutral behavior
[18:12] Jon Miller: if trading with our enemies is neutral behavior
[18:12] Jon Miller: if you trade with our enemies, and not with us, then you are behaving as our enemies
[18:12] KenFerland: stop with that mantra its getting repetitive
[18:12] Jon Miller: it is the truth, has always been so in teh world and in games
[18:13] KenFerland: and its just plain wrong as well
[18:13] Jon Miller: no it isn't
[18:13] Jon Miller: any diplomat would agree with me
[18:13] KenFerland: I'm sorry if you cant grasp the dynamics here
[18:13] Jon Miller: I can
[18:15] Jon Miller: on the accusation of this behavior (not fact), germany statred shootin gdown US boats during WW1
[18:15] KenFerland: yea unrestricted submarine warfare and all that, any boat entering english waters was torpedoed
[18:16] Jon Miller: that was on the accusation
[18:16] Jon Miller: the reality was that the US could trade with germany, just couldn't get into german ports
[18:16] Jon Miller: here we don't have the accusation, we have the fact
[18:18] Jon Miller: you won't trade with us
[18:18] KenFerland: ok JM I've got to go I'll probably contact you again once theirs some movment/development on AC's part. I hope their are some people who will consider my proposal
[18:19] Jon Miller: OK, peace
[18:19] Jon Miller: hvae a pleasent night
Session Close (Jon Miller): Thu Apr 19 18:19:47 2007


Session Start (kenferland:Jon Miller): Thu Apr 19 18:32:22 2007

[Chaos Theory]

No big deal. I'd rather Vox think we're allied with GS than know the truth.

[binTravkin]

[17:17] KenFerland: oh I think they would see it otherwise, anyways they clearly forbaide trading with you
[17:17] Jon Miller: yeah, so you are already their allies, their junior partners

[18:09] Jon Miller: we aren't asking you to act against GS (well, we are, but nevermind that now), we are asking you to trade with us
[18:09] Jon Miller: which is neutral behavior

Hilarious
Jon is as apt in politics as a child, no wonder they got in trouble.

The problem is they can start panicking even more and tell about our talks to either Bananas or GS.
I think it would be best to suspend any talking with Vox until we get to know our further course in foreign affairs.

[PJayTycy]

Maybe a well thought-out email message to clear up some points? It seems JM was either tired, drunk or very upset. He can tell Vox whatever he wants (he probably won't post the whole chat log once he realizes his childish behaviour).

[Lacero]

>The problem is they can start panicking even more and tell about our talks to either Bananas or GS.

That would come across as desperate. But given the display above that doesn't mean they won't do it, just that it can't hurt us.

[ForesterSOF]

End of his day transmission so easily upset and this caused the effect to snowball.

Talk to him again after he has cooled down.

[binTravkin]

Maybe a well thought-out email message to clear up some points? It seems JM was either tired, drunk or very upset. He can tell Vox whatever he wants (he probably won't post the whole chat log once he realizes his childish behaviour).

[Impaler[WrG]]

Donegael has sent me a PM


Another chat?

I understand that things didn't go quite so well with Jon. How about you give me a try? Unfortunately, I can't do it until Monday morning (US Central). Willing? Bring anybody you want.


This looks good to me, the quickness of the reply and the fact its sent from another member of Vox seems to indicate to me a collective "Jon you IDIOT! don't insult our only chance to survive, we must apologize/reconcile with them" consensus was reached and Jon was censured and told to recede into the background while other un-mared faces conduct diplomacy.

I think our stance should be magnanimous, we ask only that Vox withdraw any claims on our ability to tech trade as we see fit (if they have any brains at all they will not make a demand that they have no power to enforce). We won't ask for any kind of apology from Jon and should Don be more diplomatic and astute we will express our pleasure in having him as Diplomat and try to marginalize JM while promoting Don. Successfully sealing an IronWorking gifting to Vox could be just the trophy necessary to establish Don as diplomat and enhance the pro-AC faction within Vox. Should be prove sufficiently cooperative I'd like to get that inked.

To review my proposal is that we and Vox make mutually agree to the following plan. Vox will switch its current research away from Iron Working preferably to a tech we lack and are not currently pursuing or planning to pursue (most likely Monarchy but Vox's choice). AC will pledge to gift iron working to Vox slightly before the point they would originally have researched it so that no score analysis could decisively reveal our involvement. In exchange Vox will pledge to gift us Horse Back riding when we request it. The secondary tech Vox switches to will be its to keep or trade as its sees fit and no additional trades, actions or relations will be required by either side. AC dose NOT pledge to go to war with Storm or guarantee the safety of Vox at this point in time.

Despite AC's refusal to decisively commit ourselves at this time to open alliance with Vox we are interested in cultivating this as a mid to long term possibility. The framework we envision is as follows, should AC decide to declare on Strom then AC would immediately seek to negotiate a more binding alliance with Vox which would involve tech trading and mutual military coordination, attack and defense with the goal of defending Vox and conquering Storm. Vox maintaining the confidentiality of all past and future negotiations and communications would be a necessary pre-requisite of this agreement. Should Strom be defeated the continent will then be divided along lines generous to AC but providing for Vox to expand significantly, in exchange Vox will receive tech assistance and will be a vassal state to AC following its lead in foreign affairs and supporting AC in Victory as the Junior partner in a permanent alliance.

Thats roughly the text I would like to present to Don can I get a consensus on this proposal and commitment that we would sign our half. Presenting the agreement pre-ratified by our team should help speed things up. I feel the proposal keeps our long term options open, runs no risk of souring our Storm relationship while giving Vox modest but real assistance in their struggle to stay alive and builds trust between us and Vox.

[Lacero]

thats a good text. Should we make it clear that we see war with GS as desirable (though not certain)? If we're in a situation where we don't think we can win it then it's unlikely to do us good to abandon vox, as we'll be even less likely to put up a fight without vox. That puts us down in junior position to GS which is not where we want to be.

Also, we could make some kind of promise that they'll see our plan in a few turns, after we should have the three wonders etc. in case they ask for more reassurance that we're not betraying them. They just need to be patient so giving them a time to wait for to see what we're up to might help keep them going.

[PJayTycy]

Why would that trade be beneficial to them ? They'll have Iron Working at the same time, wheter they research it themselves or we give it to them. They can have some other unneeded tech, but that doesn't matter, they want Iron Working asap.

I don't see them accepting that. Also note, GS discovered Maths last turn.

[Lacero]

Because this way they can get iw at the same time, and get something else a turn or three later. We just need to stall for time so we can get maths etc. from GS, and so we can finish our wonders and get chokus.

I'm slightly worried GS will betray us and not trade maths, and if Vox don't trust us they might think we're trying to stop them getting IW and research it themselves.

But their points in the chat are accurate, without them GS will win easily and we play into their hands. Good diplomacy should be able to convince them we know what we're doing, and like I said above this will be proved when we pick up wonders/religion/chokus.

[binTravkin]

I'm slightly worried GS will betray us and not trade maths

The worse for them.
If they don't we immediately start trading with Vox on the grounds of GS breaking the TTT.
That would also do much to boost Vox and hinder GS (more than us not having Maths or them not having Alphabet).

[Lacero]

Good point. We've done a good job of hiding our real power, but I don't think we've done such a good job that GS believes they can seriously ally with Bananas against Vox and us.

I guess we just need to be ready to rush for something that can stop elephants.