Grand Summit thread

[binTravkin]

Well, I rethought the whole GS conspiracy thing and here are a few facts and obvious things.

1.
At first GS says, they're cramped and how it would be to gang up on nanas, that's understandable, divide and conquer..


2.
Now they say it's our business, reveal they're in war (might be a honorable move and might be a move out of fear that we would discover it first and lose our trust in them).
Meanwhile, they're still totally b-lining for elephants and cats - no AH, no IW - two very important military and economical techs, while Construction is purely military and a long-term military one, while the previous are both short term.

In other words:
- they're emphasizing on military research
- they're emphasizing on long-term military research (means ellies and cats aint meant for Vox)


Builder approach would be Maths->Calendar.
Hybrid approach, or approach dedicated to killing Vox would be AH and/or IW intead of Construction.

I'd say all huts are gone by now...

If it was the first Vox scout they killed, some huts could still be left, especially seeing how there's plenty of black in the GS screenie (see GS diplo thread).


Having said all that I feel that we should arrange a meeting online for ourselves to actively discuss the rapidly changing political picture and do some planning.
How do others feel about it?
We could use ICQ, mIRC, MSN(not sure this one has conference) or Skype. Have to check whether GTalk has conference too..

[binTravkin]

If finishing us off will take a long time and the other continent is having a hippy tech trade fest GS will be stuck with corrpution and no way to win.

Best thing that could happen on the other conti is Mercs or Sarantium (whomever is there or gets attacked first) beating Horde and becoming two, worst thing - Horde eating up both Sarantium and Mercs.
Doesn't really sound like a trade fest to me, even more so because I dont believe the war can turn out to be a decisive victory for the defenders, a long conflict in the best case scenario or quick overtake by Horde in the worst case (for the trade fest).

The problem is not so much in thinking that we'll be overtaken by the GS, but in the fact that if we're left with the current territory, we'll have very little space and thus wont be able to pull our desired spacerace victory simply by the lack of raw income and production capability.
We might also miss important resources, which will pop out later, like aluminium, uranium, oil and coal.

Basically, we need to take at least so much of the banana territory, that the tile with elephant resource can be reasonably defended, then we can feel militarily and economically safe, but I would lake to take the entire banana territory, to reduce the border with GS to the minimum (there's a bottleneck down south).

[binTravkin]

Another thing to consider:

Archer while defending at Vox's capital is:

3 * (1 + 0.25 + 0.5 + 0.6) = 3 * 2.35 = 7.05

A little of that strenght is offset by skirmishers having a chance for another first strike, but still it takes more than two skirmishers to kill one archer.

Now, knowing that at least early on the production of GS and Vox was somewhat on par and knowing that GS haven't hit the unit limit yet (or their GDP would deteriorate), we can safely assume that GS has only sucessfully finished the first stage of war - blocking the enemy.
The city they will build next turn is highly likely to be on a spot where it can become a high production city, to assist the capital in outputting skirmishers or axemen at maximum pace.
With all this in mind, I predict that Vox's capital will hold out at least 10-15 more turns, which is enough for us to get there..

[Lacero]

The problem is not so much in thinking that we'll be overtaken by the GS, but in the fact that if we're left with the current territory, we'll have very little space and thus wont be able to pull our desired spacerace victory simply by the lack of raw income and production capability.
We might also miss important resources, which will pop out later, like aluminium, uranium, oil and coal.

ok I understand, when I saw people talking of GS taking over the continent I thought they meant being the only civ on the continent, not being the one in charge. I can see your point, but without knowing how much space is to the south of the bottleneck we don't really know the situation. I can do irc, or pretty much any other kind of chat and I think it's a good idea.

[N35t0r]

Originally posted by binTravkin
Well, I rethought the whole GS conspiracy thing and here are a few facts and obvious things.

1.
At first GS says, they're cramped and how it would be to gang up on nanas, that's understandable, divide and conquer..

That was, IMHO, an attempt to get us at least thinking about the idea of attacking nanas, as he wanted to ensure no help could come to Vox from either of us.

Originally posted by binTravkin 2.
Now they say it's our business, reveal they're in war (might be a honorable move and might be a move out of fear that we would discover it first and lose our trust in them).
Meanwhile, they're still totally b-lining for elephants and cats - no AH, no IW - two very important military and economical techs, while Construction is purely military and a long-term military one, while the previous are both short term.

In other words:
- they're emphasizing on military research
- they're emphasizing on long-term military research (means ellies and cats aint meant for Vox)

I don't know... I wouldn't be willing to underestimate Vox either... Also, I know nye is a paranoid ***** who likes to be 150% sure of victory before engaging. Perhaps this is their current worst-off plan? Mathematics is still a pretty buildery tech.

Originally posted by binTravkin Builder approach would be Maths->Calendar.
Hybrid approach, or approach dedicated to killing Vox would be AH and/or IW intead of Construction.

IW is pretty useless against humans if you've already got copper. Swordsmen are among the worst units you can build against an opponent with either metal, or it's capital on a hill.

Maths and construction are both techs that can be useful for builders if their problem is gone before they finish them.

Originally posted by binTravkin If it was the first Vox scout they killed, some huts could still be left, especially seeing how there's plenty of black in the GS screenie (see GS diplo thread).

What are the odds they pop more than two techs off huts? They'll also continue to worsen their standing relative to us, as long as they are at war. And as long as vox has slavery (which they should definitely be heading to if they lack) they will probably be unable to gain much from the war... Definitely not as much as we'll be able to get off the nanas, if we manage to surprise them.

Originally posted by binTravkin Having said all that I feel that we should arrange a meeting online for ourselves to actively discuss the rapidly changing political picture and do some planning.
How do others feel about it?
We could use ICQ, mIRC, MSN(not sure this one has conference) or Skype. Have to check whether GTalk has conference too..

MSN can be used for conferences, though I'd recommend IRC. (mIRC is just a program used to connect to IRC servers )

[N35t0r]

Originally posted by binTravkin

We're talking about war after GS has taken both Vox and Bananas (or the latter partitioned between them and us).


As I said, Construction is some 50 turns from now.
By then they will have filled the best spots down there and will start military buildup to take at least the resource-rich southern part of nanas, especially the single elephant resource we just discovered.
Once Bananas are dead, there wont be much waiting for us left..


Yes, we should, but to take Pyramids remain a good idea as they would allow us sustain long wars should they start (+25% mil unit prod, -50% war weariness from police state).

Okay, I still hadn't read about VOX when I posted that.

As things are, we'll probably be able to gobble up the nanas (launching the attack about the time they are finishing with VOX) by ourselves. Also, from the shape and size of the continent, we'll probably be able to claim ALL the land the nanas occupy, up to and including their southern city.

By then, there will be two civs on a continent which is more than large enough for the two of us, any further war is a silly mistake, especially since we'll have the other continent to worry about.

Also, I seriously doubt they'll continue with military after they manage to beat VOX, any reasonable person will do his best to get his economy back to par ASAP... They're doomed otherwise...

[binTravkin]

I don't know... I wouldn't be willing to underestimate Vox either... Also, I know nye is a paranoid ***** who likes to be 150% sure of victory before engaging. Perhaps this is their current worst-off plan? Mathematics is still a pretty buildery tech.

The paranoid point reinforces my point about him telling about Vox so that we dont discover it first not because of benevolence.
Maths is as much builder tech as it's used as prereq for builder tech; distincitvely builder is only the ability to build Hanging Gardens.
Construction is in no way builder tech. I wonder if anyone ever builds colloseums and that's the only thing builder about Construction.


About worst-off plan - I, too am asuming the worst situation possible with GS heading for elephants and another war, but the situation seems pretty likely as of now.
There's hoping we're either first to eat up entire Banana territory or they rethink their foreign policies..

IW is pretty useless against humans if you've already got copper. Swordsmen are among the worst units you can build against an opponent with either metal, or it's capital on a hill.

Vox, doesn't have copper, so to finish them up swords would be just right.

What are the odds they pop more than two techs off huts? They'll also continue to worsen their standing relative to us, as long as they are at war. And as long as vox has slavery (which they should definitely be heading to if they lack) they will probably be unable to gain much from the war... Definitely not as much as we'll be able to get off the nanas, if we manage to surprise them.

Vox should be having it yes, strangely enough, GS hasn't instituted slavery..
Gaining enemy capital which is also a holy city, is not a small investment into ones power, neither is the whole territory where he will now be able to roam free and found on sweet spots (which we, in our territory, lack) and the veteran units, that can be used to exterminate barbarians in sight.

[binTravkin]

Also, I seriously doubt they'll continue with military after they manage to beat VOX, any reasonable person will do his best to get his economy back to par ASAP... They're doomed otherwise...

Why do you think they're doomed?
All they need is to put up some cottages and spread the religion.

We'll see what happens after they finish up Vox and we should get a scout down there watching what are they about to do.

[Impaler[WrG]]

I think the amount of space is atleast equal if not greater then everything in the Northern half. NYE made the coment "we see ice" in the last chat indicating that continent must go all the way to the south poler region. Given 50 turns they would still have probably not have it filled completly.

I agree the fall of Vox's capitol will take time, me and Senethro did a follow up (I'll post it in just a bit), They seemed likly to think the fall was inevitable but not iminent, aka our scout might reach them before that. Given that Storm showed concern we might try to interfere they dont expect to be killing them off in the next 10 turns.

[N35t0r]

Originally posted by binTravkin

The paranoid point reinforces my point about him telling about Vox so that we dont discover it first not because of benevolence.
Maths is as much builder tech as it's used as prereq for builder tech; distincitvely builder is only the ability to build Hanging Gardens.
Construction is in no way builder tech. I wonder if anyone ever builds colloseums and that's the only thing builder about Construction.

But the thing is that they don't actually need to decide on wether to do construction when they finish maths and masonry, both of which are pretty good techs to have even if you're at peace (In fact, I sometimes go maths before writing in my games if I have lots of forests)

Originally posted by binTravkin About worst-off plan - I, too am asuming the worst situation possible with GS heading for elephants and another war, but the situation seems pretty likely as of now.
There's hoping we're either first to eat up entire Banana territory or they rethink their foreign policies..

GS is actually pretty farther away from nanas than us. I think it'll be highly unlikely that, even if they attack VOX soon and get lucky, and march their units straight towards the nanas, we'll probably still capture the nana capital by ourselves. As it is, if we pop MAchinery with the GE, we'll likely be finishing or finished with the nanas by the time they would be getting construction...

Originally posted by binTravkin
Gaining enemy capital which is also a holy city, is not a small investment into ones power, neither is the whole territory where he will now be able to roam free and found on sweet spots (which we, in our territory, lack) and the veteran units, that can be used to exterminate barbarians in sight.

Not if you lose a lot in gaining that city. (btw, does whip unhappiness remain if a city is captured?) Also, We'll have the entirety of nana's land for ourselves.

[binTravkin]

GS is actually pretty farther away from nanas than us. I think it'll be highly unlikely that, even if they attack VOX soon and get lucky, and march their units straight towards the nanas, we'll probably still capture the nana capital by ourselves. As it is, if we pop MAchinery with the GE, we'll likely be finishing or finished with the nanas by the time they would be getting construction...

Well, as nye expressed it's 7 turns walk for a scout between Banana southern city and them, so it aint that far..

Not if you lose a lot in gaining that city. (btw, does whip unhappiness remain if a city is captured?) Also, We'll have the entirety of nana's land for ourselves.

AFAIK it doesnt - you get that resistance period after which all records are cleared and it's almost as a freshly built city.

[N35t0r]

Only you had to kill 4+ archers rather than just build a settler. I'm thinking they're desperate for catapults...

7 turns south from the nana city is more than what the nana city is north from us.

[binTravkin]

I proposed a planning conference while ago.
Im feeling that we should have such event sooner rather than later as discussions do not lead us to conclusions fast enough in the rapidily changing situation in the past few turns.
So Im proposing a chat this saturday, on a time that at least most active members can attend.
For me it's ok anywhere between 10:00 and 22:00 GMT
What times do others prefer?