Gathering Storm Embassy

[binTravkin]

I guess, the screenie should be sent along with some kind words and an expression of hope of their map too
Probably with the next message.

In the next communication we should ask GS how long from now they estimate the maths research will be done and note that we would like to do following exchanges:

1.Right after discovery of Alphabet we would like to trade
something for their Masonry and Polytheism (which should be done by then, or we'll be hard pressed to research both by ourselves as 'we're somewhat hasty to hook up our marble resource' and 'we would very much like to get judaism').
Masonry will take them ~10 turns to finish and Polyteism a couple more seeing how they appear to have invested quite a lot in it already.

We can offer Iron Working for those two techs.

2.
Alphabet, depending which one was already traded
for
Archery + Maths


I'd really like to trade Alphabet as part of the second deal, I dont feel like trusting them enough yet, to just give it away for some imaginary balance which they could come to disregard.
If the first deal goes aok, then the second should be no problem.


These two exchanges would be quite fair in the amount of beakers given/taken:

AC:
Alphabet: 429
Iron Working: 286
Total: 715

GS:
Masonry: 114
Polytheism: 143 (actually much less for them as most of it was considered wasted up until now)
Archery: 85
Maths: 357
Total: 699


We should also state that recieving party is not allowed to trade the techs further (so we will not trade theirs and they wont trade ours).

[binTravkin]

The only complaints I can see from GS side that:

- they can't immediately use Alphabet for further trading
- we trade Writing to Bananas, although GS could do it too

However, both points aren't a big annoyance as I expect maths to be researched some 10-15 turns after alphabet and that's still quite reasonable and early for acquiring the ability to trade.
We also shouldn't give in to any more threats like the one of researching GS Alphabet themselves, firstly because it makes no sense (even if they started it now, they'd get it some 15-20 turns after us) and because it hurts our image and our overall strenght.


Things that could be traded GS<->Banana according to the copyrighting proposal:
Banana:
Meditaton
Priesthood
Fishing
Sailing
AH (could also be traded to GS by us)

GS:
Masonry
Polytheism
Hunting (could also be traded to Bananas by us)
Archery
Maths
Writing (will be traded by us)

[PJayTycy]

I approve of this techtrade proposal , let's hope GS and Banana approve too.

(maybe we should create a tech-trade thread to discuss all matters related to this 3-way deal. Now it's scattered across banana diplomacy, storm diplomacy, strategic planning and grand summit threads)

[binTravkin]

(maybe we should create a tech-trade thread to discuss all matters related to this 3-way deal. Now it's scattered across banana diplomacy, storm diplomacy, strategic planning and grand summit threads)

Good idea

[binTravkin]

Things that must be done soon:

- sending that final tech trade proposal (draft by me @ 19-12-2006) at last
- asking what they're researching now and expressing concern about Masonry and Polytheism - we want em asap - first one because we want to use our marble (decoy ), and the second because we want Judaism.
- mentioning that we will have Alphabet very soon - 13 turns and we want to make the exchanges at the soonest time possible.
- skipping the discusion of the 3-way agreement for now (we can mention there's some hot debate going on here)

[binTravkin]

Oh, and we havent sent that screenie yet, in retaliation to nye showing us the path to them and Vox!

[Maniac]

I think we should send them a screenie where only the eastern border of Tassagrad is visible on the left side, and the western border of Bananapolis on the right side.

[binTravkin]

Well, I think they could've already gotten so far as to see where we are - remember their warrior is Woodsman II.

[Impaler[WrG]]

notyoueither PM'ed me last night and roped me into a short chat, I told him the points that were developed over in the Banana thread concerning the tech dealing framework agreement, basicly we accept GS proposal and reject Banana amendments. I am NOT returning as Diplomate, its was just a fling I swear I told him it looked like PJ might be the new diplomat, whoever becomes diplomate needs to start getting in contact with them.

[Impaler[WrG]] howdy
[nye] hello
[nye] how are things?
[Impaler[WrG]] Rather boring with team AC as far as game play goes, just chuging away on alphabet
[Impaler[WrG]] I haven't been very active and as a result I steped down from my diplomate position
[nye] we are curious what ACen think of the emails from us and nana re treaty
[nye] oh, sorry to hear about the diplo
[Impaler[WrG]] is this a resent message I haven't checked messages in weeks
[nye] going back to early december. we sent messages. nana sent messages. we get nothing back
[nye] sorry, message was sent dec 20
[Impaler[WrG]] last I heard we were obosed to the modifications the banans wanted
[nye] who on ACen is tasked to let us know what your ideas are?
[Impaler[WrG]] I think their going to coble toget some scraps from my last bit of writing and send out a message soon
[nye] we would appreciate hearing something.
[Impaler[WrG]] what specificly do you need to know
[nye] what ACen wants
[Impaler[WrG]] Tech dealing was the main thing, were still some ways from Alphabet
[Impaler[WrG]] what was the deal again, I think it was Alphabet + IW 4 Math + ??
[nye] i think there was a larger deal being discussed
[nye] if ACewn doesn;t want to do it, just say so
[Impaler[WrG]] you mean the three way framework agreement thing
[nye] yes
[Impaler[WrG]] were still for it
[nye] under what terms?
[Impaler[WrG]] let me check forum a moment
[Impaler[WrG]] let me go over the sequence here, GS proposed its initial trety plan, then Banana offered amendments, AC hasn't responded to amendments yet
[nye] true
[nye] or to our initial email
[nye] or at least, we did not receive
[Impaler[WrG]] I think our position is favoring the initial version or atleast oposing the amendment
[nye] ok. can you let us know when that is firm?
[Impaler[WrG]] PJ looks like he might take over as diplomate too
[nye] PJ?
[Impaler[WrG]] PJayTycy
[nye] have I met PJ?
[Impaler[WrG]] he plays our turn everyone and a while
[nye] I will look forward to hearing from him.
[nye] Good communication makes for good alliances.
[nye] and trades
[nye] and generally contributes to winning games
[nye] hehe
[Impaler[WrG]] true true, I'm sorry I havent been active, but I have good reason, ask Blake he will vouch for me...
[nye] i heard you had been busy. that would explain me leaving you alone for so long
[nye] but it gets to a point that we wonder at the absence of contact
[Impaler[WrG]] ahh so you had heard
[nye] no specifics. i hope you and yours are well
[Impaler[WrG]] ok well let me see here the Banana amendment proposal concerned a two points I belive
[Impaler[WrG]] Oh yes, its a good kind of busy
[nye] good to hear
[Impaler[WrG]] ok the first part of Nana amendment was rule about trading
[Impaler[WrG]] each of the three civs agrees not to retrade any technology to a non-member party acquired in trade from one of the three; without prior agreement of all three member nations.
[nye] yes
[Impaler[WrG]] thats the wording they proposed last I heard
[Impaler[WrG]] that would allow us to re-trade amongst each other which we didnt like
[nye] that is problamatical. they want to be able to retrade techs they get from ACen to Poly, and the other way
[nye] cross typed
[Impaler[WrG]] were in favor of this wording
[nye] we don;t like it either
[Impaler[WrG]] each of the three civs agrees not to retrade any technology acquired in trade from one of the three; without prior agreement of the researching nation.
[nye] i believe i can say that poly agrees
[Impaler[WrG]] poly?
[Impaler[WrG]] you mean GS?
[nye] sorry, gs... have being consul of poly on the brain
[Impaler[WrG]] oh the inter-site DG?
[nye] yes
[nye] been a long time, a lot of turns.
[Impaler[WrG]] hows that coming, I might casualy observe it, no time to join though
[nye] i must be careful of what i say in that regard, as not all readers may be on the same team... but we are not unhappy with the state of the game
[nye] if you are in the c3c isdg forum, you should check them out from time to time
[Impaler[WrG]] well I admit I flirt with CFC due to it being the stronger site for moder but in my heart I am a true Polyista
[nye] understandable
[nye] at any rate, going back to the nana proposals...
[Impaler[WrG]] ok well their was also a proposal by Banana about some kind of expiration clause
[nye] gs agrees with you about nana's proposed #2
[nye] expiration clause?
[Impaler[WrG]] Our position is that thats unessary because this all just a framework agreement anyways
[Impaler[WrG]] Quote
[Impaler[WrG]] Do we need a 6th point that defines the duration of the agreement, or is this for all time? Someone pick a date, age or tech far in the future. This is not a sticking point but it is something that should be defined.
[nye] i agree. i don;t see a need for a 6th point
[Impaler[WrG]] ok well it sounds like GS and AC are in agrement on the treaty term
[nye] it sounds as if ACen agrees with what I originally sent. If that were communicated to both GS and Nana, we would be very close to a done deal.
[nye] cross-typed, but yes
[Impaler[WrG]] The point are as follows
[Impaler[WrG]] 1. Trade by Beakers with equality as goal
[Impaler[WrG]] 2. No re-trades within the group
[nye] or outside of it
[Impaler[WrG]] hold on, do you mean that if a group member had a tech from a 4th team they couldn't trade it with a group member or the reverse, group member dont re-trade techs outside the group
[nye] the reverse, couldn't trade a tech from within to the outside... without a side deal of course
[nye] the treaty only covers the three and things we get from each other. outside sources would be wlecome
[Impaler[WrG]] ok that makes sense, we should probably make that second point me explicit on that
[nye] 'from one of the other three'
[nye] but it could be elaborated on
[nye] sorry, 'from one of the three'
[Impaler[WrG]] ok well we agree in principle what it should say, minutia of wording can be worked out
[nye] agreed
[Impaler[WrG]] point 3, no backing out of agreed trades because of outside premature aquisition of the tech
[Impaler[WrG]] like a goody hut or something
[nye] the points i wrote out were in accord with our chat, so i am not surprised that ACen agrees. all that is needed is some official communication to that affect
[nye] goody hut exactly
[nye] we all have to be able to count on the deals made
[nye] or we each have to think in isolation
[Impaler[WrG]] ok well I'll tell AC to make a formal anouncment of our acceptance of the GS treaty terms and urge Bananas to accept them as well
[nye] that would be great
[Impaler[WrG]] if for some reason Banans cant agree (unlikly) this could be a bi-laterl agreement so its not a total waste of time
[nye] it could be.
[Impaler[WrG]] I'm fairly shure they will come along though
[nye] nana could throw spanners in the works though, so we believe it would be better to have them along
[Impaler[WrG]] yes a three-some would be better
[nye] indeed
[Impaler[WrG]] do you think we should come up with a amendment/expantion provision
[nye] earlier chats still apply. nana is north of the choke point. that would be in ACen's sphere of influence
[Impaler[WrG]] something like "All expantions to the treaty group and amendments to this treaty must be unanimously agreed upon by the members"
[nye] that would be agreeable
[Impaler[WrG]] ok well that looks good
[nye] we will look forward to receiving a formal communication
[Impaler[WrG]] so how have things been going with you guys game wise
[nye] ok. the choke goes on, with a while to go
[Impaler[WrG]] yes it will take some time to strangle Vox
[Impaler[WrG]] I remember seeing that you had a good bost in your commerce a bit ago
[nye] well, they aren't going anywhere, and aren't building anything of consequence, so the end of it is not in much doubt
[nye] 2nd city. 3rd very soon
[nye] a war is no reason not to develop... it is an old gs proverb
[Impaler[WrG]] a wise one
[Impaler[WrG]] I also see were getting that scout near your territory
[nye] how far now?
[Impaler[WrG]] we just reached the coastal mountan range
[nye] yeah, i guess you want a coastal path asap
[Impaler[WrG]] its going to be tricky to get cause of the blocked vision
[nye] we will oblige with a port as soon as we can work one in
[Impaler[WrG]] ok well if your upcoming 3rd city is going to be coastal we might put a higher priority on scouting the route
[nye] not the third city, maybe 4th
[Impaler[WrG]] if the 4th is the soonest then we were not realy ver pressed for time
[nye] things come quickly now
[Impaler[WrG]] were still behind scedual on our road link with nanas
[Impaler[WrG]] so much more urgent building to do and were still only at one worker, second one in planning limbo
[nye] no problem. i was trying to let you know that we are anxious for trade as well, just that we have an enemy on our doorstep, so plans for dealing with that tend to take precedence
[Impaler[WrG]] naturaly
[nye] do you know if PJ is going to prefer chats or emails/PMs?
[Impaler[WrG]] No idea, infact I cant realy be shure he will comit to it perminent, he hammered out only one message so far on forum
[Impaler[WrG]] PM him and I'll give the word on my end that GS want a formal full time diplomate from us
[nye] we look forward to hearing from our contact, if replaced you must be
[Impaler[WrG]] yes I hope my team dosn't blow the diplomatic good will I've built up :P
[nye] friends understand the odd rough spot. what is important is that we keep the lines of communication open going forward
[Impaler[WrG]] yes Its lucky this happened in a relitivly slow period of the game, but as we get closer to Alphabet we need to get on the ball with comunications and stay that way.
[nye] yes
[Impaler[WrG]] ok well if their are no further points you want to discuss I was going to go frolock through the forums
[nye] happy frolocking
[Impaler[WrG]] good night

[PJayTycy]

I'd rather have somebody else being diplomat... I think I'm dedicating pretty much of my time to this game already and Nestor volunteered in the other thread.

Writing an occasional diplo-message is no problem, but I won't stay up till 5 am in the weekends to have a chat (remember Banana and GS diplomats are from USA, while I'm from Belgium)

Thanks for letting them know our stance on the treaty Impaler.

[binTravkin]

I can throw my hat in, but would not accept a permanent position, at times I simply can't maintain continuous activity (am in Thailand atm).

[PJayTycy]

message proposal to GS. Will be sent tuesday if nobody comments, earlier if atleast 3 people approve. Will be changed if anybody objects.
----------------------------------------

Dear Stormians,


Nye had a chat with Impaler last week about the lack of communications from our part. As Impaler told you already, he has stepped down as diplomat. We don't yet have a candidate willing to replace him and put as much time/effort into the job as he did.

You can consider the above our official sorry-message. The rest of this message only contains facts and proven roads to success in civ4.

Bananas and Tech Trade Treaty Terms
First of all, here is a part of the last message we sent to the bananas:

We are very interested in this tech trade, but, there has been some discussion going on about the trade. The "terms" which Gathering Storm sent both of our teams were something we could agree with 100%. However, you wanted to change a few of those points. Untill now, we stayed aside and let you and GS argue about it. However, due to the long long silence, we feel the need to speak up.

[...we don't agree with Banana's changes to point 2...]

The wording of point 2 could be:
2. each of the three civs agrees not to retrade any technology acquired in trade from one of the three; without prior agreement of the researching nation.

We also think the 6th point about duration is not necessary. This treaty only outlines the basic "rules" of tech trading amongst our teams. It does not force anyone of us to trade some tech. The precise tech exchanges will be agreed upon on a case-by-case basis. Whenever a tech exchange is agreed upon, these rules will apply by default.

The inclusion of their fifth point (about making tech-exchanges known to each other) is a non-issue for us. Be it included or not, it doesn't matter. We didn't mention anything about it in our message to the bananas. As we have no preference for/against that point, we think it's better if GS and Banana decide about that themselves.


GS-AC tech trade
We will gladly accept your offer of adding Polytheism to the tech deal to make it ~98% even.
We would like to trade as fast as possible, so here is a proposal to do this trade in 2 steps:

From GS to AC <=> From AC to GS
After we discover Alphabet :
Masonry (114) + Polytheism (143) <=> Iron Working (286)
257 <=> 286

After you finish Maths :
Archery (85) + Maths (357) <=> Alphabet (429)
442 <=> 429

Total : 699 <=> 715

How is your research going currently? Do you think Masonry and Polytheism will be ready to trade when we finish Alphabet (in 9-10 turns, around 1000 BC).
When do you think the second part could be done (ie: your ETA on Maths)?


Maps and scouting around GS territory
We would like to thank you for the map of the land south of the isthmus. It is of great help at this moment to make the ocean-link between our lands. As our scout is nearing your territory, we send to you the route we will try to take close to your lands. First of all, we don't want you to be surprised or guessing our intentions. The route on the screenshot is what we will try to follow. Secondly, we are a little in doubt about the feasibility of this journey. As we all know from the graphs, you recently settled a second city on a high food / high gold terrain. We assume you have settled on or near the floodplains in the screenshot. This might have blocked the passage near point 6 (especially if there would be a culture expansion soon). If so, could you be so kind to tell us before, so we can try to move in another way. Is this generally considered a safe area to move through ?


Maps and scouting around AC territory
Some turns ago we noticed your warrior to the north of our cities (on the marble hill). We have not seen him any more since then. Did you run into troubles or are you simply exploring other areas? To help your efforts here, we provide you this map :

Our cities are not visible on this map, but they are here:
1) On the roaded hill at the mouth of the Huang He
2) On the grassland at the other end of the road.
3) 4 tiles North and 1 tile West of number 1
We hope this will prevent your warrior from walking into dead-ends.



We hope to hear back from you soon !


Team Alpha Centauri
For the glory of the one Yang.

[N35t0r]

I like it

I'll see about taking on as a diplomat next week, as I start a job and will have to see how much spare time I've got left.

[PJayTycy]

message sent

[binTravkin]

Ooh, I saw this and thought you already sent it, so no need to express approval
A good one anyway, let's hope diplomacy is rapid from their side, so we get what we want from them.