An important decision

[binTravkin]

As there are different opinions regarding using our tech advantage for surprise attack on Bananas and because this decision must be made soon as our next settler placement might depend on it, a democratical vote should be in place.


A war option:
- we use our forthcoming GE to pop machinery and then pump out chukonus
- we settle our next city on cow-iron site northwest of Beijing (plans can be seen at Strategic Planning Commitee)

pros:
- surprise and early domination of continent (or our part of it)
- ability to focus on peaceful matters afterwards as of having excellent troop for the age (made obsolete by knights) and reputation as militarily strong civ
- probable acquisition of Buddhism

cons:
- being looked as a warmonger at
- losing chance on Pyramids (if there's one at the time)
- (if we dont get CoL soon)temporary science downgrading



B peace for now option:
- we use our forthcoming GE to build Pyramids
- we change settler placement to adjust for peaceful development

pros:
- getting Pyramids (a risky move - we could miss them)
- more peaceful reputation (although this borders with being looked at as a prey)

cons:
- losing surprise moment (even if we get Pyramids, once we switch to Police state, we've warned them and warned enemy is twice the strong)
- loss of reputation as a military power


Finally there's option C, which is a mix of both:
- build as preparing for attack now (settler on iron and barracks where there are none)
- if possible take Pyramids and attack later, if not, go full plan A


There have been argument that we should wait until the nanas build something to capture.
Im afraid it will not happen in foreseeable future seeing their slow development.

Also, regarding meeting of the third civ - I believe our scout is already on way to doing so (if we turn him south now).


If we're to attack bananas at all, we should do it before they get musketeers, because after they get obsolete, there will be too much chance of foreign intervention.


Think twice before voting!

This poll will conclude in the turn our settler is done.

[Maniac]

C

[Chaos Theory]

A

We will, of course, need to have another vote just before our GE pops to decide if A still makes sense.

[binTravkin]

We will, of course, need to have another vote just before our GE pops to decide if A still makes sense.

Yes, but this one is actually more important, because it decides what we will be doing next 25-30 turns and influences a lot beyound that.

[PJayTycy]

I delay my vote until more discussion has taken place in this thread.

[Lacero]

The chance of getting machinery this early shouldn't be missed, watermills and windmills are both worth it alone at this stage imho. Being able to wipe someone out is a bonus.

A: because we should use the GE on machinery.

[binTravkin]

I delay my vote until more discussion has taken place in this thread.

There has been quite some discussion in the Banana diplomacy thread and a little in the planning thread and some turn threads (like in the turn we got MC). Still too little for you?

[N35t0r]

I'd much rather first see who other is on our continent, and how far they are. But at least meet them and work out a relationship with them. I'd hate to be attacking the nanas and suddenly find thay are recieving reinforcements from the third civ.

Also, how costly are ChuKo's? How many, how fast, will we be able to build if we GE MAchinery? What about developing a bit more while we research machinery instead? Every turn we have machinery and we do not attack is an extra turn of warning for them, even more so than not having machinery and forming a police state (the latter is easier for thel to miss, I think). If we whip chukos, then probably that and the extra cities will not be exactly very lenient on our economy. The extra turns we spend building up might make a huge difference.

We might also want to check out how much the Archer -> chuko upgrade costs. But more than three of those and we'll probably be better off getting another tech with all that gold.

I think it all goes down to how long will it take us to research machinery at the time we get the GE.


Also, note that I'm completely in favour of killing the nanas before they get longbows, I just think we're better off using the GE for the pyramids or some other wonder. A windmill at this time is +1 food +1 hammer, and a watermill +1 hammer, IIRC...

[Senethro]

Voted A.
However, this is a problem we need to address. Which of their cities is the buddhist holy city? If its the capital, that will be troublesome due to the defense bonus. We're also a fair distance from catapults.

Question for knowledgable person: It might be a purely psychological thing, but I've noticed moving up an era seems to make the techs in previous eras cheaper. Machinery should make us medieval, will that improve our research of lower techs?

[N35t0r]

silly IE ate my post.

I'm 93% sure that moving up an age doesn't do that, and pretty sure their holy city is on their capital (if they indeed fund it, why haven't they switched?)

Also, according to PJay, Sarantium founded buddhism and Vox founded hinduism. So no holy city for us if we rush (and probably no holy city if we don't rush, as well) :-/

[binTravkin]

I'd much rather first see who other is on our continent, and how far they are. But at least meet them and work out a relationship with them. I'd hate to be attacking the nanas and suddenly find thay are recieving reinforcements from the third civ.

With our scout heading south, we're likely to meet this third civ before the attack.

Also, how costly are ChuKo's?

Cost	Move	Strenght	Special
-------------------------------------------------
60	1	6		+50% vs melee
				2 first strikes
				collateral damage
-------------------------------------------------

How many, how fast, will we be able to build if we GE MAchinery?

With chopping we should be able to build 6 of them (2 in each city) in ~5 turns.
That plus 2-4 prebuilt swords should do it.

What about developing a bit more while we research machinery instead?

There's 25 turns to develop until we get GE, should be enough.
Every turn of delay goes in opponents count as now they dont even have Iron Working and as it appears haven't hooked even copper yet.

Every turn we have machinery and we do not attack is an extra turn of warning for them, even more so than not having machinery

We can confuse them on our score and usage of GE by finishing Colossus in the next turn after GE is born and GL right after (one could think we built wonder for decoy, but 2 wonders?!).
And again - delaying is giving strenght.

If we whip chukos, then probably that and the extra cities will not be exactly very lenient on our economy. The extra turns we spend building up might make a huge difference.

We will have more production with those extra cities and much more safety with those veteran units and tech to build more, that should be a good foundation to catching up on economy (and I even dont think we will need any catchup at all), plus the plunder will help us sustain science rate while we build courthouses.

We might also want to check out how much the Archer -> chuko upgrade costs. But more than three of those and we'll probably be better off getting another tech with all that gold.

More than 50 gold - we can't afford it until probably banking.

Also, note that I'm completely in favour of killing the nanas before they get longbows

Another reason to do it asap.
We wont be having any better unit than chuko before they get to longbows, except maybe only knight if we go guilds soon after machinery.

A windmill at this time is +1 food +1 hammer

Which is better than mine in most occassions.

However, this is a problem we need to address. Which of their cities is the buddhist holy city? If its the capital, that will be troublesome due to the defense bonus. We're also a fair distance from catapults.

If it is, it's the capital as meditation was researched before they founded the second city.
I think chukos will deal with stacks just fine with swords coming in to finish the job.

Question for knowledgable person: It might be a purely psychological thing, but I've noticed moving up an era seems to make the techs in previous eras cheaper. Machinery should make us medieval, will that improve our research of lower techs?

I've noticed this too, but I always thought it's because my cottages are growing and other economical development happening..

[binTravkin]

Also, according to PJay, Sarantium founded buddhism and Vox founded hinduism. So no holy city for us if we rush (and probably no holy city if we don't rush, as well) :-/

That's poor, but nothing we can't live with
If we have good research further on maybe we can still get taoism or christianity/islam.

[N35t0r]

Originally posted by N35t0r
I think it all goes down to how long will it take us to research machinery at the time we get the GE.

Any estimates on this? I'm sorry for being such a pain, but I'm not at home...

[binTravkin]

Any estimates on this? I'm sorry for being such a pain, but I'm not at home...

Some time ago it was 47 turns and I suppose it hasn't changed much, probably 40 turns now.
With library and some cottage growth we could get it down to 30, with a city on commerce site probably to 25 but not much more I guess, so it's basically twice that long to wait..

[N35t0r]

hmm... almost no good then... But I guess we'll cross that river when we come to it.