turn 45 : 2240 BC

[PJayTycy]

B) 3 turns to 60/120, more food and gold
2320 BC : (5-0-1 + 3-0-4 + 3-0-4 + 0-4-0) => total: 19-34-20
2280 BC : (5-0-1 + 3-0-4 + 3-0-4 + 0-4-0) => total: 24-46-30
2240 BC : (5-0-1 + 3-0-4 + 0-4-0 + 1-3-0) => total: 27-64-36
2200 BC : whip (4 pop -> 3 pop, + 60 hammers)

Moved one worker from a floodplain to our second mine. Next turn we can whip our forge with 1 pop for 60 hammers, immediately grow back and assign an engineer.


In RNG temple, I kept working the 2 food + 1 hammer tile, like we were doing. It will take 2 turns till the copper mine is finished. Changing to the unfinished copper mine now, would yield 2+3+3+6 (14/15 hammers), so we would need one more turn anyway : 2+3+3+6+6. Therefore, we can aswell do 2+2+2+6+6, and get some more food in the process.


Kept the scout around RNG, just to have atleast some kind of safe-guard untill our warrior is built.

I'll send the endturn on, and do foreign intelligence and screenshots after that.

[PJayTycy]

foreign intelligence:

Bananas from 123 to 153 points (+30), due to land increase from 21 to 37 tiles (+16)
Mercenaries from 127 to 148 points (+21), due to land increase from 17 to 28 tiles (+11)
Gathering Storm from 122 to 128 points (+6) due to pop growth in their only city from 4 to 5 pop (They are now the only ones with 5 pop in 1 city and they receive 90000 "real" population for that in the demographics screen)

Screens coming up next

[PJayTycy]

our lands overview:


Being


RNG temple

[PJayTycy]

More info about the banana new city (capital tile + one tile working):

their food production increased from 6 => 10 (with 1 more citizen to feed)
their hammer production increased from 3 => 5
their gold production stayed at 10


A city plot always gives +1 gold, so they changed one citizen in their capital away from a one-gold tile. This means we can't rely 100% on the production differences to tell where they settled. We know they have 8 land tiles, and probably a rich food tile in the neighbourhood, so I guess they went south-east and settled on the coast north east of the rice plot. (see our overview map).

Ofcourse, we could just ask them where they settled, to confirm this guess. They'll probably just tell us.



Next turn:
-> whipping the forge at Being.
-> change one citizen to engineer.
-> estimated hammer production : 10 / turn ( 2+4+eng = 8; 8 * 125% = 10). Overflow will be (4 + 10) / 200% = 7
-> estimated food production : 2 / turn (5+2+3 - 8)
-> estimated gold production : 14 / turn (same as current turn)
iron working will take 10 turns to complete

The turn after that:
-> What will we build next in Being?

• scout (15 -> 1 turn) => usefull to map rest of our continent
• warrior (15 -> 1 turn) => to have some extra defense before committing to collossus and barracks.
• worker (60 -> 4 turns) => to speed up copper connection, so we can start collussus faster. If we use our other worker to pasture&road the cow-tile at RNG first, it will be a long time before we can extend the road to our capital. If we build the road to our capital first and only pasture the cows after that, we'll have the cows a few turns later, but we won't be growing to pop 2 so soon in RNG anyway.
• settler (100 -> 7 turns) => will be finished 2 turns before we research iron working if we start building the settler immediately.
• barracks (60 -> 6 turns) => not really necessary if we intend RNG temple to be our military production city
• granary (60 -> 6 turns) => we're growing pretty fast as it is
• obelisk (30 -> 3 turns) => we don't need one in our capital at all
• stonehenge (120 -> 7 turns) => a risky shot at a world wonder somebody else might already be nearly-finished with.

My preference:

• Worker: build a 1-tile road to our capital first, after the copper mine is roaded (before we move to the cows).
• Being: build a warrior and/or scout first, then start a settler.

[Senethro]

Warrior/warrior/settler or warrior/worker/settler.

[Lacero]

>stonehenge (120 -> 7 turns) => a risky shot at a world wonder somebody else might already be nearly-finished with.

I'm not saying it is, just asking. Is the gold we'd get from this worth it at this stage compared to the benefit from a warrior (and the rest)?

I'd go for scout / warrior / settler, get the scout exploring properly in case the iron is in the black unknown.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by PJayTycy [*]granary (60 -> 6 turns) => we're growing pretty fast as it

I don't understand this argument. Impaler also already said something similar. In Civ you have to emphasize your strengths, not your weaknesses. The reason for building a granary would be so that we can poprush double as many times because the pop grows back double as fast. So us having lots of food is an extra argument in favour of a granary, not against. Likewise, I hope you guys would prioritize forges in our production rich cities, and not the other way around.

Also I'd propose not to build workers or settlers while we're not at or above our maximal happiness limit.

[PJayTycy]

Maniac, if we don't control our growth, is there no risk we'll end up with (depending on how much we use the whip) :
A) a city with 8 citizens, (5 unhappy and 3 happy) where we can't do anything but build settlers and workers.
B) a city with 4 citizens, which are all unhappy and we can do nothing usefull with (not even support an engineer).

[Maniac]

Just poprush something expensive every ten turns (such as a worker or settler, instead of building them directly). You only get one unhappy citizen no matter how many pops you spend per whip. With a granary and at around our current size it takes only fifteen food to get thirty hammers. That is counted even without usng the exploit. I challenge you to find a better production method.

[Impaler[WrG]]

StoneHenge is no good because it would result in Great Prophet Points mixing with our Enginer points and would end up giving us ~40% chance of a Prophet which would provide us with things like Meditation

Its better to run 1 Engineer and get a guaranteed Engineer for Machinery, I'm hesitent to even build the Great LightHouse and Collosus earlier then needed as these will give us Merchant point which are risky. Though Merchants are definatly more usefull then Prophets at this point.

I think the Warrior should be next, it will free up the scout to go and see what the Bananas are uptoo, I'm interested to see when and if they are getting access to Horses as this could indicate a plan to WarChariots rush us (all this conspiracy planning has me paranoid).

That could be followed by a Granary, Maniac has a good point with one of our workers as an Engineer the food balance is such that we could make use of the granary for more efficient Whipping. After that I still wouldn't start on the Collosus, its still way early, I'd go for a 3rd Settler or Worker.

[-SafaN-]

warrior to start with
granary wouldn't be bad
we need one or two galleys to start exploring the sea
the great lighthouse needs a lighthouse
and a settler and a worker too

thats a lot that needs to be produced yeah

[binTravkin]

I think the Warrior should be next, it will free up the scout to go and see what the Bananas are uptoo, I'm interested to see when and if they are getting access to Horses as this could indicate a plan to WarChariots rush us (all this conspiracy planning has me paranoid).

That could be followed by a Granary, Maniac has a good point with one of our workers as an Engineer the food balance is such that we could make use of the granary for more efficient Whipping. After that I still wouldn't start on the Collosus, its still way early, I'd go for a 3rd Settler or Worker.

I think Impaler got it best analyzed, and I agree on warrior being first.

settler (100 -> 7 turns) => will be finished 2 turns before we research iron working if we start building the settler immediately.

Are you sure?
Currently it seems that 1 turn after whip our gold output will rise by 4 (1 citizen assigned to cottage).
Which means that Iron working will be taking 7 turns.
Plus, the carryover from forge will be gone if we build warrior and settler will take much longer:

Our tiles:
5-0-1
3-0-4
2-2-1

0-2-0 from engineer

That's 4 hammers and (5+3+2) - 4*2 = 2 food surplus, which translates into 100 / 6 = 17 turns for settler without whipping and 12 with whipping 1 citizen.



I think that your estimate that we will grow back after the whip is wrong (unless Im missing something ).
We will grow next turn to 5, after which we will have 2 food leftover in 10food bar. After the whip the bar will be reduced to 8 food and still 6 food short of growth.
We will be having a total food output of 10 and a surplus of 10-4*2 = 2, which leaves us 3 turns short of growth.

So Im in favour of granary being second and the settler third but I do think that we could 'mix' those builds timing them so that granary is ready to be whipped right after unhapiness wears out and we can whip it at the last limit of 2 citizens so there's a 20+h carryover for settler (which would have some hammers already).


As for other options:
- scout - if we build the warrior, scout frees up and it doesn't seem we need two
- worker would be useful, but as pointed out, we shouldn't be rushing the Colossus or Lighthouse before our engineer is done.*
- obelisk really isn't an option
- barracks will be needed later to build chukonus (if any), but should be timed after we see iron, so that we can know if we're gonna commit to the chukonu rush or it is impossible due to lack of resource
- stonehenge - I think it's about to be completed by someone (PJay, do you know of anyone having masonry yet?), but if we get it it will help us pretty much.
Again, though, I'd rather see it in other city than capital.
- galleys - I've always seen them of low importance but probably Im missing the point.
- lighthouse - we need this one but I think we need library even more to use our great commerce potential.


* - we could time Colossus so that it's finished right in/after the turn our engineer is done, not to spoil the odds.

Maniac, if we don't control our growth, is there no risk we'll end up with (depending on how much we use the whip) :
A) a city with 8 citizens, (5 unhappy and 3 happy) where we can't do anything but build settlers and workers.
B) a city with 4 citizens, which are all unhappy and we can do nothing usefull with (not even support an engineer).

PJay, if we whip something while the last unhapiness haven't worn out, the time gets added, like this:

Say you have 1 angry citizen and 2 turns left for him to be angry.
You whip.
Next you have 1 angry citizen for 1 turn and one for 11 turns (10 + 2 - 1 turn spent) !

This is reason why angriness can stockpile.
If you only whip after angriness is gone, it doesn't stockpile, therefore we should time our builds in 10-turn series for each city starting from first whip.
Actually we should keep some table of these data, so we can plan.

City		Last whip	Next whip
------------------------------------------
Beijing		2200		1800 (?)
RNG_temple	-		-
------------------------------------------

? - when do turn times change from 40yrs/turn to less?

[Lacero]

yes you're right, building a scout is a waste, a warrior to free our current scout is better.

If we build a scout and a galley we could send them off exploring together though? Are we still early enough to avoid the barbarian galleys?

[PJayTycy]

Originally posted by binTravkin
Are you sure?
Currently it seems that 1 turn after whip our gold output will rise by 4 (1 citizen assigned to cottage).

Note we are currently still working one of our floodplains, so for the +4 gold you propose, we'd have to work both flood plains. I posted all of the x/turn info with the assumption we arranged our citizens like this
rice + flood plain + mine + engineer (*A)
You seem to propose
rice + flood plain + flood plain + engineer (*B)
?

In that case, the amounts change like this: (*A scheme -> *B scheme)
production = 10 - > 5 / turn (2+eng = 4; 4*125% = 5)
food = 2 -> 5 / turn (5+2+3+3 - 8)
gold = 14 -> 18 / turn (1 + 1 + 4 + 4 + palace)

Scheme A might indeed be better if we follow Maniac's idea of 1 food = 2 production, except we can't really use that for cheap units (warrior, scout).

[qoute]Our tiles:
5-0-1 rice
3-0-4 flood plain
2-2-1 city
0-2-0 from engineer

I think that your estimate that we will grow back after the whip is wrong (unless Im missing something ).[/quote]

The screenshots might have misled you...

We will grow next turn to 5, after which we will have 2 food leftover in 10food bar. After the whip the bar will be reduced to 8 food and still 6 food short of growth.
We will be having a total food output of 10 and a surplus of 10-4*2 = 2, which leaves us 3 turns short of growth.

In civ, all things happen *before* we send on the turn. The situation you see in the screenshots is exactly what we'll get when the turn arrives next. Population growth, unit/building production, saving the file for the next team, ... It all happens the moment you click endturn. After that, I send on the save, do the foreign intelligence, take screenshots etc... without leaving the game.

Besides that, this is not SMAC. The food-bar is not 11 tiles long. The 11-8 you see in the screenshot means 11 food production and 8 food consumption. The bar is 20+pop*2 long. So, next turn our bar will be filled 27/28. We will whip a forge and our bar will be filled 27/26. I'm not sure we'll be able to use the 4th citizen immediately for working a tile the same turn, but we'll certainly grow back when we hit end turn. Even if we have no food surplus.

If you only whip after angriness is gone, it doesn't stockpile, therefore we should time our builds in 10-turn series for each city starting from first whip.

Yes, but my point was, we grow faster than once in 10 turns. If we whip everytime we grow to 4, unhappyness will pile up. So, as pointed out by Maniac, we should build expensive stuff, so we can whip with 2 people at a time. If we then maintain a +1pop / 5 turns scheme, all will be OK. We just have to build expensive stuff so our angry people have something to be whipped-to-death for, but I guess I can live with that

[binTravkin]

In civ, all things happen *before* we send on the turn. The situation you see in the screenshots is exactly what we'll get when the turn arrives next. Population growth, unit/building production, saving the file for the next team, ... It all happens the moment you click endturn. After that, I send on the save, do the foreign intelligence, take screenshots etc... without leaving the game.

Besides that, this is not SMAC. The food-bar is not 11 tiles long. The 11-8 you see in the screenshot means 11 food production and 8 food consumption. The bar is 20+pop*2 long. So, next turn our bar will be filled 27/28. We will whip a forge and our bar will be filled 27/26. I'm not sure we'll be able to use the 4th citizen immediately for working a tile the same turn, but we'll certainly grow back when we hit end turn. Even if we have no food surplus.

Righty, I messed it up, sorry for confusion.


Regarding tiles to work.
I do believe that 3-0-4 is far superior tile to 0-4-0 for the food alone and we should be striving to use our good food amount in exchange for hammers by whipping.
In fact I agree with Blake in the other thread where he calculates that no-food tiles only become reasonable after they have 5+ total output (say 0-4-1 or 0-5-0) as long as there's at least a 2-0-1 (cottage) available.

If we then maintain a +1pop / 5 turns scheme, all will be OK.

We should and granary will help us greatly.
Cheap units can be produced by overflows created when whipping for 2 citizens.