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The old man at the sea

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  • The old man at the sea

    Out of the suburbs a little boy runs towards the shore. He is looking for his grandfather, who left the house earlier in anger. Although he has the weird habit of asking more questions then giving answers, he seems to be very wise. The boy finds him, sitting on a rock staring over the big blue waters.

    The boy goes sit next to the old man, and several hours pass. The boy finally can’t stand it any longer and asks “Why are u angry, grandfather?”

    After a brief pause the old man finally answers: “I’m not angry; I’m more disappointed. Anyhow, you want to hear why I assume?”
    The boy nods.
    “Let me ask you a few questions first. Where is your father?”
    “Working in the mine they found next to our new city. Digging down towards some special ores”
    “What will they do with that ore?”
    “I heard they plan to make weapons with it.”
    “To hunt animals?”
    “No, to kill the other tribe to the east.”
    “Hmm, wasn’t there a delegation of them last week here?”
    “Yes, there have been several of them in the last few years”
    “What do they offer?”
    “Father says they want peace, and exchange technologies.”
    “And what does your father wants?”
    “He wants to kill them, with the new weapons they are going to develop.”

    A long silence.

    “Don’t u agree with him, grandfather?”
    “I don’t like his thirst for blood, no. I think we should focus on other things then drenching this fertile land in blood.”
    The old man points towards the sea: “There is much unknown out there.” He turns around and points to the land. “Even our continent hasn’t been explored completely, and we are already talking like there isn’t enough space for the both of us …”
    He nods toward the city of Beijing: “That are our strongest points. We can equip many soldiers with the new, yet to be developed weapons, but cities will give us the resources to make them, and gold to research them. Although I actually hope there will be no blood spilled. War should be our last option, not our first.”
    The boy thinks deeply, and then asks: “Should we do like they propose, and share everything we have with them?”
    “Ha!” said the old man ”There is a difference between working together, and offering them to backstab us. No, we should do just like we did before. I’m worried that with all this talk about blood and weapons, some hotheads will say something that forces us into an early war. And remember, grandson, these adversaries are cunning people, just like us, and if they lose, they will try to drag us with them. We should be very careful of that”

    The old man stands up. “We are going back to the city. You are going to play games like everyone of your age does, instead of listening to whiny old people.”
    “And u grandfather?”
    “I’m also going to do what people of my age do … trying to convince the younger that we indeed know better, and give warnings nobody will notice.”
    “I hope they will listen”
    “Not a chance of that, grandson, not a chance”
    http://www.danasoft.com/sig/scare2140.jpg

  • #2
    The "problem" with being peaceful now is that we forever pass up a particularly good opportunity to overrun an opponent, thanks to luck and our civ choice. CKNs are quite good compared to anything else of the same tech level, and the nanas won't even be at the same tech level, thanks to our metal casting pop. So, if we focus on building instead, we will never have such a clear advantage over another team again. Furthermore, in the future, we might have to worry about an opponent bringing allies into a war.
    "Cutlery confused Stalin"
    -BBC news

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    • #3
      Is this just a general RP post or are you expressing dissatisfaction with the proposed course of action?

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      • #4
        Dissatisfaction.

        We should be democratic about this, but first it would be good if a counter-argument of what CT said was provided, so options can be weighed objectively.
        -- What history has taught us is that people do not learn from history.
        -- Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.

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        • #5
          The boy returned to the city, to go looking for some of his friends, like his grandfather told him. He likes his friends very much, and loves to play with them. It's always a lot of fun when they get together.

          It hasn't always been like that however. He has some bad memories from his earlier youth. He was friends with some very smart little chinese kids. They would go to the woods and study the bears who walked there. They would cut some trees, go to the sea and build a small boat to go looking at the fishes. They would go to Being, just to look at how those engineers were building complex structures like forges and libraries. This friendship lasted for 2 years, but then their ways parted.

          His interests hadn't really changed in such a short time, so he continued to visit the woods, the fish and the construction sites in the city. After a few weeks, he realized there was not really so much difference between doing that alone or with his friends. The construction workers kept building, the fish was still swimming, only moving trees from the woods to the sea had become harder to do alone.

          He was very sad once he realized this: Those he had called his best friends for a big part of his life where in fact not more than just random people he knew nothing about, except they like bears, fish and construction workers.

          The boy didn't know why he suddenly had all these sad memories, but they vanished immediately when he saw his new friends. He immediately spotted Shu, who was dressed up all in yellow, sitting high in a tree. He immediately knew what he had to do. They had played this game almost a hundred times. His other friends where hiding in the surroundings, waiting with self-made bows to shoot at the yellow one. If the yellow one could crawl to the top of the tree without being hit, he was declared the winner. However, this didn't happen very often. He knew he'd have to be the yellow one in the next game, because he arrived too late, but he didn't mind. Even while knowing he would probably loose, he still enjoyed the challenge of trying to do the impossible. And while crawling his way up in the tree, he would constantly be on the lookout for a good spot on the ground to shoot arrows from in the next game.

          They have been friends now for over 5 years, and their ways have parted a lot. Whenever they want to have fun though, they always return to the woods to play together. Nobody ever forgets when they agreed to play together and the whole week they are talking about what they'll try next week.
          no sig

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          • #6
            Haha, very good. That gave me a chuckle.

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            • #7
              I ashure you that as our Official Diplomate I will do my utmost to maintain what ever web of lies we might need to entrap the Bananas and I'm confident they wont catch on to our plans from anything I say.

              I must agree with CT and BinTravin, its a great oportunity and I respect the Democratic process. I'm looking at it purely oportunisticaly, if peace becomes more advantagious then war I'd go for that instead. I cast my vote to Plan for War but plan a reasonable abort option as well incase the situation becomes unfavorable.

              The Plan I've proposed over in the Diplomacy thread is oriented towards incressing the "shock and awe" of an attack but it dosen't absolutly comit us to an attack and it should be possible to conceal our lie about MetalCasting if we eventualy deside not to war with the Bananas. We could even go on to have a fruitfull Aliance with them if we abort the war. The Critical desision will need to be made before we create a GE which is atleast 30 turns in the future. It might also be made for us by a lack of Iron which is a slim but destinct possibility thus an abort option is prudent no matter what ones level of bloodthirstyness is.

              Just because were sharpening knives to backstab them dosn't mean were commited to doing so, our domestic building plan is on a peacefull growth footing and will remain so right up untill we deside to make the final commitment. But when we DO come to that point we must come together and deside and then follow the group desision with an Iron will, if its war we go all in commiting all production and all units to the effort with the goal of total anexation. Everyone knows you dont fight a war on the cheap.
              Last edited by Impaler[WrG]; October 17, 2006, 15:25.
              Companions the creator seeks, not corpses, not herds and believers. Fellow creators, the creator seeks - those who write new values on new tablets. Companions the creator seeks, and fellow harvesters; for everything about him is ripe for the harvest. - Thus spoke Zarathustra, Fredrick Nietzsche

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              • #8
                I'm with Safan in the sense that we should keep our options open. What's currently being proposed in the banana thread - setting up an elaborate web of lies, not yet researching iron working - is NOT anymore keeping our options open. While it doesn't 100% make the decision to go to war, it carries the risk that our relations will be bad with the Banana for the entire game if the truth comes out, and we'll be forced to go to war anyway. Or at least lose any possibility of cooperation. I assume we've all played enough DGs by now to realize how little is needed to screw up relations for the entire game.

                Our preferred builder research path is the same as our conqueror research path, so there isn't a need to rush anything.
                Last edited by Maniac; October 17, 2006, 16:55.
                Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
                Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
                  But when we DO come to that point we must come together and deside and then follow the group desision with an Iron will, if its war we go all in commiting all production and all units to the effort with the goal of total anexation. Everyone knows you dont fight a war on the cheap.
                  An all-out war is not absolutely necessary I think. Especially due to them being creative, their city defenses could be hard to bust. A possible alternative could be limited groups of Chu Ko Nu's pillaging everything in sight (and guarding their copper resource) until we have catapults. In other words, keep them small and unharmful until we have the forces for a full attack. Reminds me of Sparta versus Morgan.
                  Last edited by Maniac; October 17, 2006, 16:54.
                  Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
                  Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I would expect the nanas' nicer cities to have 40% cultural defense by the time we would attack them. Their best defenders would be swordsmen and archers. Swordsmen would be strength 6 + 40% (culture) + 25% (fortification) = 9.9, reduced to 6.6 against CKNs. Archers would be strength 3 + 40% (culture) + 25% (fortification) + 50% (city defense bonus) = 6.45. If they have cities on hills, those will be tougher to crack.

                    However, our CKNs get 2 first strikes and inflict a little collateral damage (less than catapults, but I'm not sure how much less - anyone know?). Attacking cities, we'll be able to roughly trade units. Anywhere else, such as in the open, we'll have a distinct advantage. These are good conditions for war, though we can't be stupid about it. We may have to confront the question of how to make peace with them after advancing as far as practical, should they prove too tough to eliminate.
                    "Cutlery confused Stalin"
                    -BBC news

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Chaos Theory
                      Attacking cities, we'll be able to roughly trade units.
                      But archers and swordsmen are cheaper than chuks IIRC. I don't know if we'll have the production capacity to beat them in city attacks this early in the game. Hence perhaps a two stage war? One phase to destroy their economy, and a second phase to take their cities with the help of catapults?
                      Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
                      Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)

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                      • #12
                        ''Dad, how do soldiers killing each other solve the world's problems?''- calvin

                        Are you sure we want to setup a deliberate web of lies with the intention of backstabing? IIRC the statiscly winning strategy in a repeating prisoners dilemma situation is the more altruistic choice. This will stain all the players involved to some degree, athough it may not matter too much. Although it is true that war in civ is the way to victory, at least in SP, we should wait until we can ascertain the banana's usefullness to us.

                        Reminds me of Sparta versus Morgan.
                        Right, where a turnplayers mistake allows a sneak attack to win


                        If we procede along this route we may lose the trust of the other teams. This is NOT like SMAC-we cannot use sheer skill and the ineptcy of other teams to gain a solo victory, and with so many teams i am sure atleast 2-3 of them will be in winning positions also. War is probably the best option, but chosen with
                        Last edited by Kataphraktoi; October 17, 2006, 20:28.
                        if you want to stop terrorism; stop participating in it

                        ''Oh,Commissar,if we could put the potatoes in one pile,they would reach the foot of God''.But,replied the commissar,''This is the Soviet Union.There is no God''.''Thats all right'' said the worker,''There are no potatoes''

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                        • #13
                          hehe, i'm glad some of u see my point
                          http://www.danasoft.com/sig/scare2140.jpg

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