2360 Bc

[Maniac]

Will pop rushing the Kolos give us 50 hammers per pop?
20 + 100% for copper + 50% for Industrious?

Just wondering: building a granary before the Kolos is only useful if we intend to poprush the Kolos.

[PJayTycy]

Can we poprush wonders ?

[binTravkin]

Can we poprush wonders ?

A strange question from such a good cIVer.
Of course we can!

Will pop rushing the Kolos give us 50 hammers per pop?
20 + 100% for copper + 50% for Industrious?

Im not sure if that works exactly that way, but we'll surely get a discount.

According to Blake's formula:
pop = remainder / (bundle size*(1 + modifiers))
bundles = remainder / bundle size

I don't know what the bundle size for wonders is, but if it's 20 as you wrote then it's:

pop = (250 - (carryover + accumulated)) / (20 * (1 + 1 + .5))
bundles = (250 - (carryover + accumulated)) / 20

or in other words the pop:bundle ratio will be like:

1:2.5

And with a bundle of 20 it means we can finish a 200h leftover of Colossus in a whip of 200 / 20 / 2.5 = 4 citizens
(not that we're gonna get the 8 total pop which is required)
or if we assume we'll have 5 pop, we can whip 100h into existance by a 20h bundle size, which translates into need of accumulating 150h beforehand, which is 150/22 = 7 turns with our current production level (but I guess we could tune it down to 6 with some carryover from Granary and thus complete Colossus in 7 turns total).

[PJayTycy]

Originally posted by binTravkin
A strange question from such a good cIVer.
Of course we can!

I'm not a good civer.
I've spent more time reading the source code than playing. I know a lot about the details in the numbers, but almost nothing about really playing.

BTW: If I weren't posting from @work, I'd simply have looked it up in the source code or tested it in-game.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by binTravkin
or in other words the pop:bundle ratio will be like:

Forgot about the forge +25%. It'll be 55 hammers per pop.
Can anyone calculate under what circumstances we can get a bundle for free?

[Senethro]

Wait, shouldn't we get the Lighthouse rather than the Colossus? Theres going to be no rush at all for the Colossus because theres no way anyone else has metal casting. Unless we're just wanting to start acquiring Great Merchant points, why are we bothering?

[PJayTycy]

To change our target to the great lighthouse we need to:

=> Change current research from Iron Working to Fishing (3 turns research)
=> After fishing, research Sailing (8 turns)
=> Start building a lighthouse, and research masonry (5 turns to research, whip the lighthouse)
=> Start building the great lighthouse

So, that means 11 turns of "free build" in our capital.


About the colossus whipping, I looked it up in the source code, and tested a few cases (+/- 10) in-game:

=> in the CIV4BuildingInfos.xml, the collosus has a HurryCostModifier of 100, which means we have a base of 15 to calculate with.

the rate = 100% (normal) + 100% (copper) + 50% (industrious) + 25% (forge) = 275%
15 * 275% = 41 hammers / pop

So, the "fast" formula is:
production_left / 41 => population required
production_left / 30 => number of 30-hammer bundles we get

I noticed one thing which Blake didn't mention in his description. The overflow hammers are re-adjusted to take into account the bonusses you had. So, all overflow we get is multiplied by 100%/275% before it is added. This means the overflow hammers are actually not worth "so much". I plotted both on a graph : the hammers we get per pop, but also a graph which takes into account the overflow loss.

The graph only shows the possible whipping region (ie: 2 slaves, so from 82 hammers left -> 1 hammer left). Here the ideal point is at 41 or 40 hammers left, which gives us 47 hammers / pop.

[PJayTycy]

(previous post was the image for the colossus)


here is the image for the forge. We get most hammers/pop when whipping just after 60/120 completed (=least hammer overflow = least hammers "devaluated").

[Impaler[WrG]]

I'm leaning towards whipping the forge when were at 60, this will us down to 4 pop. With one of thouse as an Enginer along with both Villages and the Plain Mine being worked we would both frezze growth (which we want for a bit untill the Cruel Oppression is forgoten) and we can pump out 10 hammers a turn towards anything we want.

I'm also leaning towards delaying the Collosus due to no practical competition for it, The LightHouse is a possible contender as its earlier Tech avalibility. After Iron we should be dirrecting out research that way. In the interum we will probably want to build a military unit or another Settler in the Capitol (I dint think a Granary is of much use when were already so food rich in the capitol) then start laying down thouse wonders in quick succession.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
(I dint think a Granary is of much use when were already so food rich in the capitol)

Rule #473 of playing Civ: emphasize your strengths, not your weaknesses. A granary means double as many poprushing.

[Chaos Theory]

Could someone check to see what we get if we whip an Axeman at 0/35 hammers with a forge? Also, isn't there a sweet spot at 4/35 hammers, or maybe somewhere else? Once we have a Granary at our capital, at the very least, we can throw out an Axeman made of rice every now and then.

[N35t0r]

what about granary -> settler -> collosus?

[binTravkin]

With one of thouse as an Enginer along with both Villages and the Plain Mine being worked we would both frezze growth (which we want for a bit untill the Cruel Oppression is forgoten)

We don't need to make artifical conditions to stall growth - we can use settler for that.

So, the "fast" formula is:
production_left / 41 => population required
production_left / 30 => number of 30-hammer bundles we get

Isn't that production_left / 15 => number of 15-hammer bundles we get, for Colossus?

Could someone check to see what we get if we whip an Axeman at 0/35 hammers with a forge? Also, isn't there a sweet spot at 4/35 hammers, or maybe somewhere else? Once we have a Granary at our capital, at the very least, we can throw out an Axeman made of rice every now and then.

We won't be able to whip axe right after forge - copper will not be linked yet, so we need something in the middle.

Wait, shouldn't we get the Lighthouse rather than the Colossus? Theres going to be no rush at all for the Colossus because theres no way anyone else has metal casting. Unless we're just wanting to start acquiring Great Merchant points, why are we bothering?

This requires readjusting research, but lighthouse is an option, although I'd rather have a settler moving towards iron site asap.

I'm also leaning towards delaying the Collosus due to no practical competition for it, The LightHouse is a possible contender as its earlier Tech avalibility. After Iron we should be dirrecting out research that way. In the interum we will probably want to build a military unit or another Settler in the Capitol (I dint think a Granary is of much use when were already so food rich in the capitol) then start laying down thouse wonders in quick succession.

So basically we have following options after forge:
Granary
Settler
Axe

We just need to decide the order.
If we whip forge to 4 citizens, we might aswell build settler to freeze growth for a while and cool down the angry people, followed by granary and then axe.

On the way to sailing we should already try to start accumulating GP points towards engineer, so we can make an insta-build of Great Lighthouse.

[Lacero]

I agree with waiting on the collussus, but I don't think the lighthouse is a priority to research for. So I think we should build another settler, timed for when iron working is complete. Then we can get iron units and sort out the bananas.

[binTravkin]

So I think we should build another settler, timed for when iron working is complete.

Doubt that will be possible, though, unless we go like Granary->Axe->Settler

Then we can get iron units and sort out the bananas.

You think we should attack with swordsmans then?
Chu-ko-nu's wont be so soon after we hook up iron as machinery is an expensive tech.