Turn 121, ACen Diplomacy

[notyoueither]

Has there been anything not in the team email?

They have 4 cho kung fu's next to Moscow (now named Yangs Demise).

I would not be completely shocked if they attacked our stack and not Vox. Or our stack after Vox. If they have a couple of friends not far behind, they could end the war alright.

Do the regulars here have a good sense of the state of relations with ACen? Are we comfortable? Are they happy?

[Theseus]

I have no idea WTF is going on.

[vmxa1]

Well things have been good so far, but that is how you would play it in any case and hide any treachery. If I were them and had good units, I would have to consider a strike as we are only going to get stronger and must face off at some point.

Only way to avoid that is making a deal like they did in our last game and smiled at us, until we killed of GoW.

[Blake]

I am in diplomacy right now with Impaler (AC team diplomat).

I know that I'm not the team diplomat but I figure that I'm qualified to do the diplomacy and Impaler and I are friendly. We are discussing borders. I don't get the vibe that they plan to use their units on us .

[notyoueither]

Go, Blake, go!

I'm sure you are more than qualified, and you certainly know what we need in the North.

[Blake]

Main Points:

AC offered this border:


I was disagreeable .

We tentatively agreed that it would be acceptable to both teams, to split up that cluster of resources. Which it is. We just can't afford to let AC do precisely what they want up there.

AC says they are going to start withdrawing their CKN's next turn.

I've tentatively negotiated for a Civil Service for Construction + IOU trade, AC are not interested in Philosophy.

AC are researching Optics and suggested they might pursue Astronomy after that.

We discussed tech in general, and Impaler appeared agreeable to letting GS pursue Liberalism, as in they have other things which are more important.

Overall the tech picture was confused and needs to be ironed out.

Interestingly, Impaler seems to be pushing for AC to play a "Build all the wonders" variant. It seems BT is not fond of this idea though.

[Blake]

Chat transcript:

[3:48:19 PM] Impaler says: I'd start going into some official Diplo if your up for it
[3:48:32 PM] Blake says: Mmm?
[3:48:45 PM] Impaler says: I am my teams official Diplomate
[3:49:05 PM] Impaler says: Is nye still doing that for you?
[3:49:09 PM] Blake says: Yes
[3:49:14 PM] Blake says: I think anyway
[3:49:38 PM] Blake says: I'm not a diplomat but I do know how to do diplomacy and I'm sure they wouldn't mind if I do some .
[3:49:59 PM] Blake says: I've thought of offering to be the diplomat actually but I'm lazy :P
[3:50:22 PM] Impaler says: well he'd mentioned the need for a border agreement between us
[3:50:56 PM] Impaler says: do you guys have a proposal or should we present a proposal first
[3:51:44 PM] Blake says: You are welcome to present a proposal
[3:52:37 PM] Impaler says: btw did you guys have any border agreement with Nanas?
[3:53:27 PM] Blake says: Well, we certainly considered everything up to splitsville to be ours, but we made no formal agreement.
[3:54:09 PM] Kenneth Ferland sent file "border1.jpg" to members of this chat

[3:55:24 PM] Impaler says: this border focuses on the natural barriar of the mountain range as you can see
[3:55:50 PM] Blake says: Where is the nearest AC city?
[3:56:08 PM] Impaler says: The conquored Banana cities
[3:57:08 PM] Blake says: I'm pretty sure that the sentiment in GS is that we want to race you for territory, with the expectation that both teams will make unreasonably greedy border proposals
[3:58:24 PM] Impaler says: I think we would prefer to avoid that kind of race, it can lead to animosity
[3:59:15 PM] Impaler says: we know were not in a position to use much of that southern isthums for a while but we can make good use of the coastal land with the Collosus
[4:00:48 PM] Impaler says: Also we've walked through the area and cleared it of barbarians on our way south.
[4:01:23 PM] Blake says: My connection is flaky
[4:01:39 PM] Impaler says: It seems so
[4:01:55 PM] Impaler says: you get my last 3 messages?
[4:01:59 PM] Blake says: Yes
[4:05:16 PM] Blake says: GS is aware that a land grab could lead to animosity, but perhaps a border agreement made prematurely could create more, at least for whatever team ends up feeling they got the short end of the stick
[4:07:06 PM] Impaler says: It would seem to me that their is sufficient exploration now to see what everyone is getting and their need not be any short end
[4:08:07 PM] Impaler says: If you recognize the former Banana territory as ours and we recognize as everything south of the mountain range as yours the area under contention is actualy very small
[4:08:21 PM] Blake says: Right
[4:08:52 PM] Impaler says: you have maps up to the southern edge of splitsville yes?
[4:09:13 PM] Blake says: We have the area fully mapped
[4:09:58 PM] Impaler says: ok then perhaps a mutualy planned city placement can be done
[4:10:51 PM] Blake says: We would be amendable to that
[4:11:27 PM] Impaler says: I see two, possibly three city locations in that area that look like they could go either way
[4:11:52 PM] Impaler says: one NW of the Horse on the west coast
[4:12:06 PM] Impaler says: and one NE of the cow? on the east coast
[4:12:54 PM] Impaler says: possibly another on the west coast north of ware Moscow was
[4:13:04 PM] Impaler says: no East I mean
[4:13:53 PM] Blake says: So AC would be amendable to dividing that cluster of 5 resources roughly evenly between our teams?
[4:15:04 PM] Impaler says: witch 5 is that again (people didn't turn onthe highlights for my map)
[4:15:21 PM] Blake says: 1 horse 1 cow 2 bananas 1 ivory
[4:15:50 PM] Impaler says: yes that sounds about right
[4:16:55 PM] Blake says: It does seem like the way, which would seem non-greedy to both teams.
[4:17:10 PM] Impaler says: perhapse if we took the west coast location and GS the East that would give us a good split
[4:17:45 PM] Impaler says: we would agree not to try to culture push from the cities ofcorse
[4:18:02 PM] Blake says: Naturally. We'd probably want some kind of culture agreement.
[4:19:04 PM] Impaler says: as time tends to be the most important factor we should build at roughly the same time and use minimal cultural production nessary to get the fat cross
[4:19:15 PM] Blake says: Indeed.
[4:20:22 PM] Impaler says: well I'll send this on to my team
[4:21:16 PM] Impaler says: I suspect some will want to maintain the mountain range as the border though so I cant offer this as an official position
[4:23:08 PM] Blake says: Well, it's much the same sentiment at GS, just moving the border to above that cluster of resources .
[4:23:17 PM] Blake says: So... lets see if we can meet in the middle.
[4:24:22 PM] Impaler says: If its resorces that are important in your view we can agree to long term leases and the like on them
[4:25:17 PM] Blake says: The grassland has significant value for cottages and the food makes for strong cities, and I think that's the primary value of that area.
[4:25:21 PM] Impaler says: Our concern is more towards the creation of coastal commerce generationg cities, the resorces serve mainly to facilitate the gowth of the cities
[4:25:43 PM] Blake says: Yes, it's a commercially valuable area.
[4:26:28 PM] Impaler says: Yes my point was simply that obtaining Bananas and Ivory arn't major drivers for us
[4:27:16 PM] Blake says: Neither for us, we would of course like a real banana patch just for sentimental value, but we'll have the secure ivory behind the mountains anyway.
[4:27:50 PM] Impaler says: likewise with us
[4:28:40 PM] Impaler says: we'll begin withdrawing our forces next turn btw
[4:29:12 PM] Blake says: Some people in GS who don't entirely trust AC will be happy to hear that .
[4:29:23 PM] Impaler says: the scout were planning on moving south west in hopes of establishing a river based trade route with you
[4:29:35 PM] Blake says: I'm not one of those people, incidently . I think our teams will work great together.
[4:30:40 PM] Impaler says: so long as the benifits of coperation are reaped (primarily in the form of tech trades) peace tends to be favored my the bulk of the community
[4:31:03 PM] Blake says: Peace really, is irresitable, I feel .
[4:31:14 PM] Impaler says: trade will add yet another benifit
[4:31:26 PM] Blake says: Indeed, that is the primary benefit of peace.
[4:31:43 PM] Blake says: What's not to like about doubling our research speed
[4:31:53 PM] Impaler says: nye had mentioned building a port city which wont be nessary if this scout can link up a river route
[4:33:02 PM] Impaler says: so you could save yourself a city spot, I thin 3 more turns should be enough
[4:33:18 PM] Blake says: Yes, I think that when you scout that area the rivers should hook us up
[4:34:13 PM] Impaler says: the river flows SW out of your territory I belive and the scouts just rounding the southern end of your border
[4:35:19 PM] Blake says: Yes that's right
[4:35:28 PM] Blake says: There
[4:35:40 PM] Blake says: Oh I was going to say there's the other river but it's iced over
[4:35:53 PM] Impaler says: Your currently researching Phillosophy right?
[4:35:58 PM] Blake says: Right
[4:36:05 PM] Impaler says: were on Optics I belive
[4:36:13 PM] Blake says: Mkay.
[4:36:37 PM] Impaler says: I assume compass and optics arn't much use too you?
[4:37:23 PM] Impaler says: I'm wondering whats the next trade we can swing?
[4:37:24 PM] Blake says: I suppose... that we wouldn't really bother getting them in any hurry, no.
[4:37:37 PM] Blake says: CS for Philo?
[4:38:24 PM] Impaler says: Philosohpy dosn't appeal to us, the main benifit is religion which you will have and the wonder (which we normaly love) is an especialy suckey one
[4:38:37 PM] Blake says: So you aren't interested in pacifism?
[4:39:08 PM] Impaler says: no Organized Religion is better
[4:40:12 PM] Impaler says: especialy with all the new infastructure we will need as we expand
[4:40:19 PM] Blake says: Okay... GS might be kinda annoyed that you wont make that trdae . We thought you would, otherwise we'd probably have insisted on researching CS because we want it ASAP, of course.
[4:40:48 PM] Impaler says: what els do you have that we dont have?
[4:41:20 PM] Blake says: Um, I think we still have construction over you
[4:41:51 PM] Impaler says: whats that do again, besides cats? Aquaducts?
[4:42:08 PM] Blake says: Catas aquas colos elephants, engineering pre-req
[4:42:37 PM] Impaler says: humm not much need for any of that stuff right now
[4:43:04 PM] Impaler says: maybe aquaducts if we wanted to do Hanging Gardens
[4:43:15 PM] Impaler says: btw are you planning to do HG?
[4:43:34 PM] Blake says: I don't believe so
[4:43:43 PM] Blake says: we're really set up for whipping and commerce, not raw hammers
[4:44:31 PM] Impaler says: yea weve noticed your raw hammers are very low, you whent all cottages didn't you
[4:44:40 PM] Blake says: Floodplains, what else? heh.
[4:45:08 PM] Impaler says: were almost completly townless, all our commerce is coastal
[4:45:54 PM] Impaler says: well what do you plan after Philosophy?
[4:46:20 PM] Blake says: There's only one tech which matters: CS.
[4:46:49 PM] Impaler says: were thinking of either moving further along in navel oriented techs or Fudalism
[4:47:15 PM] Impaler says: well assuming we trade the CS what would you research next?
[4:47:59 PM] Blake says: That's a good question
[4:48:31 PM] Blake says: Probably paper but that's just off the top of my head
[4:48:39 PM] Impaler says: theirs also Banking which has gotten a lot of desirability in our plannings
[4:48:52 PM] Blake says: Yeah the question is really education vs banking
[4:49:02 PM] Impaler says: then PP ofcourse
[4:49:55 PM] Impaler says: really I'd think PP with its imediate rewards would be more desirable then education which requires a building to get roughly the same thing
[4:50:08 PM] Blake says: Except for liberalism :O
[4:50:26 PM] Impaler says: oh yes for got old Lib
[4:51:06 PM] Blake says: The only other tech worth mentioning is Music, for the free GA... but that would be pretty worthless
[4:52:24 PM] Impaler says: yea
[4:53:21 PM] Impaler says: well when we finish Optics we could go right into paper too
[4:53:47 PM] Impaler says: or together we could push towards Nationalism but that seems too early
[4:55:05 PM] Impaler says: Theirs also Theology-> Divine right to consider
[4:55:23 PM] Blake says: Do you think that AC could be ammendable to "gifting" GS Civil Service, so we can research faster and pay you back sooner? It would certainly open up new and more attractive research options for trade.
[4:57:08 PM] Impaler says: possibly though I think a asmetric trade for CS say Construction might be more doable then an out right gift
[4:57:15 PM] Blake says: That would work too
[4:57:24 PM] Impaler says: whats the cost different between them?
[4:57:38 PM] Blake says: Con is about the value of CS
[4:57:41 PM] Blake says: half
[4:58:09 PM] Impaler says: and Philo is about the same as CS?
[4:58:13 PM] Blake says: exactly the same
[4:59:01 PM] Impaler says: yes I think we'd be more interested in getting Construction and getting an IOU then in Philosophy
[4:59:12 PM] Blake says: Okay
[5:00:35 PM] Impaler says: I can see some desire to get a piece of the pie though if we facilitate your bee-line to Liberalism
[5:00:53 PM] Blake says: Indeed, that would be reasonable.
[5:01:13 PM] Blake says: If it's a joint effort to some degree, the rewads should be shared to some degree.
[5:01:17 PM] Impaler says: what do you think you'd take as the freebee?
[5:01:42 PM] Blake says: No idea.
[5:02:01 PM] Impaler says: Are you getting close to any Great People?
[5:02:12 PM] Blake says: Not really, we plan to switch to pacifism and then go crazy
[5:02:30 PM] Impaler says: A Prophet could grap Theology (about the only thing their good for)
[5:02:46 PM] Blake says: I don't think we'll want more religion. We have two already. Or iwll have.
[5:02:56 PM] Blake says: We'll be banging out scientists and if we get prophets, they'll go to shrines
[5:03:22 PM] Impaler says: its allso a means to Paper though
[5:03:25 PM] Blake says: We've got no wonders so we can be choosy about what we generate
[5:03:37 PM] Blake says: But as I said, we insist on having CS so it's moot
[5:04:12 PM] Impaler says: yes the Wonders do produce a Crap-shoot on the Great people, so far we've gotten usefull guys
[5:05:17 PM] Impaler says: I could see us going Theology, Divine Right, Nationalism to grab up Wonders
[5:05:33 PM] Impaler says: lots of goodies on that path
[5:05:48 PM] Blake says: Divine Right is like tits on a bull... IMHO
[5:06:18 PM] Blake says: Unless AC is actually on some crusade to build all the wonders
[5:06:40 PM] Impaler says: Guilds requires Fudalism which is kind BLA
[5:06:55 PM] Blake says: Yeah, of some use to GS thanks to Serfdom (yay spiritual)
[5:07:02 PM] Impaler says: Well I am on a Crusade to get AC on such a Crusade
[5:07:09 PM] Blake says: Hahah
[5:07:33 PM] Impaler says: It was my Idea to go for the Oracle
[5:07:45 PM] Blake says: If you want us to research Fedualism I'm sure we could
[5:08:15 PM] Blake says: Poor feudalism never gets spelled correctly
[5:08:31 PM] Impaler says: BinTravkin did a lot of the math but I did a lot of the pushing for the heavy wonder based strategies
[5:09:03 PM] Impaler says: yes if you did Fudalism that would be good :P
[5:09:04 PM] Blake says: Frankly I'd trust BT's maths, but if you want to pursue wonders then it would certainly make for an entertaining game.
[5:09:31 PM] Blake says: We could make sure not to build any so you don't have to invade us to complete the collection (rofl)
[5:09:40 PM] Impaler says: hahaha
[5:10:00 PM] Impaler says: Sarantium is already marked
[5:11:01 PM] Blake says: Okay lets wrap this up, is there anything else to talk about?
[5:11:17 PM] Impaler says: don't know, have any ideas?
[5:11:32 PM] Blake says: I think we've got enough to bring back to our teams... borders, techs
[5:11:51 PM] Impaler says: all rather speculative still ofcourse
[5:12:03 PM] Blake says: Yes, it needs to be discussed in depth
[5:12:24 PM] Impaler says: We need to pound out some long term stuff on our side
[5:13:18 PM] Blake says: Yes, GS has been a bit sleepy lately... because the choke/war just has been going for so long. We're probably about ready to wake up and get doing hard strategy.
[5:13:19 PM] Impaler says: overall how do you forsee the mid game developing
[5:14:00 PM] Blake says: expansion, lots of expansion
[5:14:11 PM] Impaler says: we will be seeing cross continental contact soon and possibly the elimination of one of the teams on the other continent
[5:14:34 PM] Impaler says: yes expantion goes without saying :P
And it will go fast too, the turns averaged something like 3 days this month
[5:16:26 PM] Blake says: Mmm
[5:16:40 PM] Blake says: Whent he focus is economics the turns tend to go quickly
[5:17:09 PM] Impaler says: but the other continent is in a war and they haven't slowed down either
[5:17:30 PM] Blake says: Depends on the type of war
[5:17:31 PM] Impaler says: or do you think they have stalemated?

[vmxa1]

Nice job Blake, we can benefit form getting tech cooperation.

[notyoueither]

Recieved by PM from Impaler.

Hey nye, your still the GS diplomat yes? Well were getting close to finalizing a tech trade offer and I'm wondering if GS has digested the results of the chat I had with Blake and perhaps your ready to chat some more. If so What IM programs do you use?

[notyoueither]

Sent back.

I wouldn't say I am the diplomat at the moment, but I would chat if we could get together.

Unfortunately, tonight is not so good. I have a C3C ISDG turn to get done and work tomorrow.

I will be around more later on the weekend if you cannot find Blake.

nye

[Blake]

Had another diplo session with impaler.

It strayed quite a bit offtopic so I can't really be bothered posting the log.

The relevant stuff is:
AC offered Feudalism + IOU for CS trade, refusing to trade for Philo.

I decided to play hardball and suggested that GS would be better served by researching CS, slowing both teams down through this redundant research, but giving GS a comparative advantage over AC (not boosting their tech lead). In short, I threatened that GS was willing to play stingy.

I then offered this trade:
CS for IOU plus a 25% premium over the value of CS (ie 125% of the value of CS)

Saying that the premium was just off the top of my head, and quite negotiable.

Impaler suggested that it could be acceptable, that they'd gift us CS immediately, and we research Feudalism after Philosophy.

Advantages are:
GS: Gets CS much earlier, gets philosophy and feudalism sooner.
AC: Gets the value of CS+25% extra in future trades, gets feudalism sooner (because GS has more commerce to research with).

In short, this is the generous trading scheme, where both teams need to be generous (AC in forwarding us CS, and GS in paying more than the beaker value).

I believe it is in our benefit to either play stingy or generous, and not play "even". AC will naturally be trying to make trades where AC gets the comparative advantage, and because AC has the tech lead, they can easily do that, any fair beaker for beaker trade, is basically in AC's favor.

When we are playing catchup, research techs AC already have, we get a discount on that tech, and we aren't accelerating AC's research progress. It's in our benefit to do that! At least to the extent that it doesn't cause BOTH teams to lose to the other continent.
By making a credible threat to play this stingy strategy, we can force AC to be generous. If we can avoid being lured into "Fair looking" beaker-for-beaker deals, we can get some genuinely fair deals.

[Blake]

Oh, forgot to mention.

I've now officially volunteered to be the team Diplomat and I may as well say that I'm officially the team Diplomat, since the position is basically vacant and undesired.

[notyoueither]

It's yours.

I simply do not have the time.

[Cort Haus]

Well played, Blake.