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**Blake** · August 7, 2006, 23:24

As for terraforming...

We can get 12h/turn with the following configuration:

Sheep Mine: 1-4-0
River PH Mine: 0-4-1
River GLH Mine: 1-3-1 (this is forested, needs to be chopped)
2x Floodplain 3-0-1
City Tile: 2-1-1

Total Yield:
10-12-5

It's not a true Skirmisher every 2 (that would require 12.5 hammers) but it's as good as. We also get the chop, to clear the grassland hill.

That seems to be our best bet for sustained production - be that for skirmishers or settlers/workers.

As for growing to 5...
I think we should work the sheep mine full time, even though it does slow down growth (while working the sheep we get skirmisher every 5). It's worth noting that the mine will be delayed by 2 turns due to the Vox warrior (unless they do something dumb with him), this delay isn't really unwelcome since max growth is also good. If we decide we really want to max growth and not work the sheep mine we should instead road the plains hill between EotS and the Sheep after Vox scares him onto that tile, having a road from EotS to Sheep allows us to protect both more easily and also allows the worker to come back more easily to pasture the sheep.

There is some merit to building roads in general, altough the abundance of rivers in the area and the fact that most are floodplains (+1 turn to build) means that roads are a fairly low-yield investment, compared with what they can be over dry land. I think in this case (in the short run) popping out more units will be more beneficial than higher mobility.

**notyoueither** · August 8, 2006, 02:33

The 12 ham city is what I thought you had in mind.

12,12,12,12,12,12,12,12,12=108 hammers and 4 skirm in 9 turns. Pretty close to 2t skirms.

Roads to speed our untis would be part of a larger 'build them into the ground' strategy. We would build enough mil units to keep a lid on Vox while building 3 or 4 cities with workers to develop them, and then move on Vox with an overwhelming force. We would have some spare worker actions.

The risk of that strat would be a third party who gets involved and takes Vox's side. They would have to be close though. If they are far they would likely not see the effort as being worthwhile in the long term, and could do little to nothing in the short term (without horses).

**Velociryx** · August 8, 2006, 06:56

Good thread, NYE!

Here are my thoughts on the whole Voxian situation:

* Peace is not an option. Even if we accept the premise that we're better at land management (which, thus far, it certainly seems that we are), the moment they bring that gold mine online, we have a devil of a time keeping up, tech-wise. Right now, what's saving our bacon is the fact that we have better units (and comparable tech). Give them a leg-up, tech-wise, and our one big field advantage disappears. Simply put, peace (at any but unacceptably high prices that they'd be unwilling to pay anyway), helps them more than it helps us. If we're going for the win, then we need to fully commit to this war right now, and stay behind it till they've been eliminated.

* Second city...if we wind up with copper inside our borders, then a second city isn't as big a priority as if we don't...IF we don't, then obviously, we need to find us a source of copper and whip out a settler, triple-time, spit out a "copperized" city and go bury them with mainline units and skirms in support (and even if we DO have copper inside the border--doubtful, IMO--a second city would vastly speed their demise, and I think we can all agree that speed is of the essence. We don't want to spend the next two thousand years beating them down, so somewhere in all that skirmisher building, we need to make room for a second city (we've got a number of attractive sites, and can build in a westerly direction, well away from "the front" in what is almost surely "safe" (warrior escort) territory.

* We can't ignore scouting while the war's on...we MUST find out if other civs are on the continent, so the "spare" warrior we have right now can speed that along by doing some scouting for us, even as we press our advantage with Vox (huts would be a nice bonus here, but the overriding goal would be to find the edges of this landmass and really see what we've got to work with, and who else is sharing it with us). To that end, a scout would be a superb addition to the build order.

* We shut down all of Vox's best real estate with warriors (fortified on the most defensive terrain we can put them on), and skirmishers (the rest), and augment this force with sufficient troops so that we can KEEP the lock and prevent their own settlers from moving off--without degrading the lock. Meantime, we build our own second city, hook up our copper and grind them to dust.

* Another civ....*shrug* I do not see this as a concern. It strikes me as unlikely in the extreme (not impossible, surely, and it underscores the need for continued exploration), but unlikely that there's another civ close enough to affect the outcome of this contest, one way or another.

With regards to our target....I'd be willing to bet that when they get Bronze Working, they'll hit the panic button. With our choke on, and strengthening, they'll want more defenders, more quickly, so they'll pop rush, which will shink their city. But with us occupying all the prime real estate, their growth will be stunted, and they won't be able to recover like they think they will. In their panic, they are likely to shoot themselves in the foot, and/or do something rash, and this is key.

We scare them.

We make them defeat themselves, and then we move into our Holy City.

$0.02

-=Vel=-

EDIT: Build particulars

In order to keep the timing "right" and the initial force total good, I like the four skirm idea (total of five, counting the one we're getting ready to have).

That occupies our time and our production queue until we know where the copper is, at which time, we'll be wanting both a settler and a scout. So my vote would be, steady on as NYE has outlined:

the skirm we're currently doing, followed by four more, over the next nine turns

which should see us hit size five and gain BW

scout

settler

plan from there?

*** alternately (and this depends on how much immediate-term value is placed on continuing to scout), we squeeze out a scout after this first skirm and send him on his way, then get back to it....has the advantage of coming sooner, meaning better intel sooner, and the possibility of more huts--and one good hut could more than pay for him...come to think of it, yes...I almost like this better...squeeze out a quick scout, and then get back to skirmisher builds til we hit size five and have BW, then settler to put the final nail in their coffin...

Yes...my revised recommendation would be:

Finish the current Skirm and send him over to Vox

Scout, to hug the coast north until he's away from the battle lines, and then, see what else is up that way

Skirm #2

Skirm #3

Skirm #4 (check to see if we have BW yet)

If BW, and no copper in our borders
Settler (even if there's no copper in range)

If BW and copper in our borders
Skirm #5
Settler

re-plan

-v.

**vmxa1** · August 8, 2006, 10:18

Vel I see the same way.

**Krill** · August 8, 2006, 11:45

[q=Vel]the skirm we're currently doing, followed by four more, over the next nine turns[/q]

That isn't possible. We are only capable of that after we grow o size 5, which will take 10 turns, IIRC, after the skirm is built, without using the sheep. Right now we are capabe of...almost 3 turn skirms so long as we don't grow...

**Velociryx** · August 8, 2006, 11:56

Right...misreading on my part...but the *essence* of the plan is unchanged...we grow, and build skirms while we're waiting for BW...if we don't get quite as many as the initial projection I wrote, that's cool...it'll be enough.

-=Vel=-

**Blake** · August 8, 2006, 11:57

Vel, where are those skirmishers coming from if we're growing at the same time? The capital will be running 5hpt, skirmisher every 5 - we'll train 2 in 10 turns, and can get a 3rd with a chop.

I think our worker should finish his mine (well that's a given) and then head to the Grassland Hill and chop it, popping out a scout or skirmisher, he can then mine the hill.

Why use dotmaps when symbols are so much more uh... symbolic.

I strongly support founding a 2nd city on the wines, directly between EotS and The Voice. It's a fantastic site with a 3 commerce city tile, plenty of floodplains and the grassland hill to mine (and hill will form part of the road to Vox). And our supply line to The Voice will be firmly secured.

To the west of EotS, the "sword" city wont help protect EotS from harassment, but it does have better potential for chopping out units and it can share tiles with EotS so can be immediately more productive (no site is particularly stand-out).

Shield is a sexy whipping colony, if it works un-improved floodplains growth will take:
Size 1->2 = 7.3
Size 2->3 = 6
Size 3->4 = 5.2
Size 4->5 = 4.67

It can whip out 2 axemen every 11 turns (size 2->4) or 2 axemen every 10 turns (size 3->5, post border-pop). Considering the commerce it'll bring in just for existing it'll take surprisingly little time to return the investment. And even un-improved it'll be MORE productive than The Voice (once locked down by skirmishers).

**Randolph** · August 8, 2006, 11:58

RE: Whether to build a scout?
How do huts work in MP, is it based on noble level? I haven’t played noble in awhile, but IIRC you can get all sorts of wonderful things from huts at that level including workers and maybe settlers. I’ve also heard that a popping with a scout increases the chances of a good result, but I haven’t confirmed this. A chance at getting a tech/worker/settler would make building a scout sound very desirable.

**Velociryx** · August 8, 2006, 12:13

Blake: Agreed re: my assessment....a closer reading (also pointed out by Krill) reveals that my timing and numbers were off, but the essence of the plan is still quite solid. We grow, sacrificing hammers and skirm completion speed (but still getting enough out to perform the choke, more than possible, even on the slower timetable, especially if we use one chop to do it--this gives us a total of four Skirmishers, rather than the five I initially claimed for the timeframe...one less, however, should not be telling in terms of their overall impact to Vox), and plant a second city.

For safety sake, I'd be more inclined toward the site you've outlined via the "sword", with a city built on the wines dropped down shortly after we demolish Vox, but both sites would serve excellently for our purposes, and it really comes down to "where the copper is" as our preference for one or the other--or something entirely different--will change once we see where the copper is, or if it's present at all.

re: Scouts...no free settlers or workers on Noble, but the Scout *does* guarantee that you won't get a bad result, so yes...the sooner we get him out hunting, the better off we'll be, no doubt.

-=Vel=-

**Arrian** · August 8, 2006, 16:05

I like the aggresive "build into them" approach Blake advocates, but I think planning our 2nd city before we discover BW is premature. We have to know where the copper is! Once we do, we can make an informed choice.

As for the war... well, I'd really like to just take them out. But only if we think it can be done without crippling ourselves in the process.

-Arrian

**Krill** · August 8, 2006, 16:45

Can't get settlers or workers on noble and above, but scouts are still the best units for uncovering terrain.

Turn 32: WF 2, 4, 8, 2hpt/4fpt
Turn 33: WF 4, 8, 87, 5hpt/3fpt, Worker finish mine
Turn 34: WF 4, 8, 87, 5hpt/3fpt, Skirm1 built, 0 hammer spill over, build Scout1, worker 2
Turn 35: ditto, Worker Mine
Turn 36: WF 4, 23, 87, 8hpt/0fpt, Scout1 built, 0 hammer spill over, build scout 2
Turn 37: ditto
Turn 38: WF 4, 7, 87 Mine2 complete
Turn 39: WF 4, 8, 88, 1hpt/5fpt, Skirm2 built, 0 hammer spill over, build Skirm3, worker 6 road
Turn 40: ditto
Turn 41: WF 4, 8, 9, 88, 1hpt/6fpt, 0 food stored
Turn 42: ditto
Turn 43: ditto
Turn 44: ditto
Turn 45: ditto
Turn 46: WF 4, 8, 87, 88, 5hpt/4fpt
Turn 47: Grow to size 5, 12 hammers stored in Skirm 3.

Please check for eras, I haven't played any PBEM in CIV...

**Dominae** · August 8, 2006, 19:13

We need Catapults. Even if we deny them Copper they can hole up in their capital and be really annoying by denying us that awesome spot. My guess is that building a second city early on will get us to Construction faster than expanding upward.

I think 2 Skirmishers is sufficient for now. We can always build more if it gets dicey out there. It's not like we need a dominating presence in their region, just enough to keep them off Copper or Iron. I would even let them have the Gold if they really want it: what can they possibly reasearch with it in time? Construction? Feudalism? Letting them do some research might reduce our tech costs (I'm thinking of Iron Working here in particular).

**notyoueither** · August 8, 2006, 20:31

I don't like the survivability of scouts with wildlife soon giving way to barbs AND Vox warrior(s) to our north.

If we want to scout, do it with a warrior, or preferably a skirm.

In the meantime, with Fido moving off, SB can use the woods to our South to speed around and uncover other possible sites for nearby metals.

As for ques, I agree with Blake and growing through Vox. Size 5, a couple skirms to defend and keep a lid on Vox, and then settler. Depending on techs and times to build improvements we may need to 'work' a worker in there.

**Velociryx** · August 8, 2006, 20:32

I agree that cats would be damned nice to have in this situation, Dom...and I think we should make it a mid-range priority, for sure...but I also think we can take them out before then.

I honestly believe that fear will drive them to rash action, and that rash action will lead them to make a fatal, exploitable mistake, without the need to wait so long as cats to finish them.

If the opportunity presents itself, we need to be ready, even while making for the unit that would utterly doom them (in truth, we could take them with nothing more than cats and skirmishers, but there's really no point in that).

Still, I agree....no matter what happens with the copper/iron situation, cats would be the...meow.

I don't like the idea of giving them anything to work with tho...let's just kill them and have done with them. The longer they live...the more they research (even if this provides US some nominal advantage) the more likely it is to bite us in the arse.

Less risky to just choke the life out of them.

re: skirmishers and scouting...if we're not gonna USE a scout, then let's use the woody II warrior...he's the next best thing, and already on the table. Just toss another Skirmisher on the pile to take his place, but if we do that, then let's send him packing as soon as the first skirmisher hits the table, if not before.

-=Vel=-

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After the 1st skirm: Econ/Strat spit ball session

After the 1st skirm: Econ/Strat spit ball session

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