Vox Diplomacy

[Blake]

Good.

If AC really wants to broker some kind of surrender or something then maybe we can revisit it. I think that on reflection AC will come around to our and Vox's way of thinking though. The kneejerk reaction is to not kick people out of the game... but I think after it drags out like this the merge would be bitter and awkward.

[Arrian]

It still feels too gamey to me. I understand people don't like the idea of a team being destroyed so early, but thems the breaks.

-Arrian

[Mudhut]

I also second the idea that we want to avoid "gamey" actions like this. I wasn't there, but just reading through the transcripts of the PTWDG and what Glory of War and ND did leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Not that I think this would be on the equivalent level, but it's still moving in that direction.

If Vox are destroyed, that's the way it runs. Who knows what might happen? Maybe Vox get gifted IW and find a source next to their capital, or get a really really lucky roll of the dice, or we have huge barb explosion somewhere, or AC and Nana stab us in the back ....Vox might survive. But they rolled the dice, and they need to accept that them being obliterated is now the most likely outcome.

[Ennet]

About the PTWDG, the situation was that either team could basically annihilate the other in a turn, or well cripple them beyond repair at least, whoever would strike first would win.
No way for a clean fight, which was one of the main reasaon we let it end like it did if i remember.
Hopefully that won't be an issue this time.

[Hot Mustard]

Not really a diplomatic message, but Jon Miller (Vox) posted the following upon receiving the save:

Originally posted by Jon Miller
hmm, not what I expected

can we ahve it a bit longer also?

JM

[Arrian]

In reaction to our 3rd skirm moving onto the cow tile, I assume...

-Arrian

[Hot Mustard]

Possibly also to the Axe showing up in Winestrom, I'm thinking.

[Krill]

TBH he is probably having difficulty finding a way out of this hole and doesn't realize that there isn't one.

All he can really do is put an archer on the forest hill north of The Voice, place another archer in The Voice, and pull the warrior back or maybe use it as a sentry somewhere.

[Hot Mustard]

Beckham: 4/4, 0/2 Exp. Attacked The Voice and lost, Donegeal 2.6/3.0
Zidane: 4/4, 0/2 Exp Attacked The Voice and lost, Donegeal 1.8/3.0
Materazzi: 4/4, 0/2 Exp. Attacked The Voice and lost, Donegeal ?/3.0

Someone please forward these results to Vox with an appropriate wrapper.

[notyoueither]

Received from Donegeal. He sent this AM.

ME STRONG! YOU WEAK!!!

Wow. That Archer is a damn tough nut to crack sitting in all that culture, isn't it? We though you might attack, but I am sure that next time, you guys won't attack when it's on just a chance of victory...

Anyway, the point of this PM is not to gloat, but to ask for a battle report.

Thanks you.

Donegeal, Super-Archer of Vox.

A bit annoyed, and at work feeling a bit rushed (I signed into Poly to spend a break and got 3 PMs in 2 minutes) I replied...

Battle report should be in the log file of the save. It will give you a blow by blow report. As for a conventional report...

Begin log/
3 skirms attacked, 3 skirms died.
/end log

Got home from work, wanted to post the exchange and saw HM's report. Sent this just now.

Oops. It seems HM posted this with an expectation that I would forward it. Sorry.

Beckham: 4/4, 0/2 Exp. Attacked The Voice and lost, Donegeal 2.6/3.0
Zidane: 4/4, 0/2 Exp Attacked The Voice and lost, Donegeal 1.8/3.0
Materazzi: 4/4, 0/2 Exp. Attacked The Voice and lost, Donegeal ?/3.0

[Hot Mustard]

Jon Miller noticed me on the gmail account and struck up a chat:

Jon: Donegeal wants to try for peace again... who should he communicate with?
also, who is this?
me: Oh, hi, HM here.
Jon: (personally I think we are just boned in 10 turns)
me: All our diplomats and diplomats in training disappeared - more Vox kidnapping was suspected... [nose wink]
Jon: lol
well, should I tell him to send it to you if he wants?
me: I still dutifully post all messages sent to the team address in the appropriate Diplo threads in the GS Forum - it's just that no one has stepped up to respond.
I have been avoiding getting into Diplo myself, but it looks unavoidable..
Jon: the offer which Donegeal would like to offer you is:
Peace
Right of Passage
Setting of Research
Setting of Military Strength
Use of any and all resources
Allotment of UN vote (when it becomes relevant)
... not everyone has chimed in yet on our forums thouh
me: I'll post that this the offer is under deliberation and ask for thoughts then
Jon: I expect emperor, and maybe 1-2 others to chime in on our furms
I and Donegeal are the most active ont he forums, while emperor is the most active turn player
me: personally, I have to wonder if/why Vox wants to get into another vassal arrangement
Jon: My current vote is against it... that is why I said it is under discussion
if others want to though, I will back away and let them do it
me: The map pretty much set this up, IMHO, there were very little that could prevent it - if I was vetting the map, I would have done something about it
Jon: yeah... I agree
I wonder how AC and the other continent is... I wonder if things were left so that things would settle before the end game
If I had known you were nearby, we would have played very differently
me: hadn't though of that - maybe they thought it would make for a quicker game, as these go so long anyways
of course
and the religion/river complication just sealed our fates
Jon: yeah
and your early UU helped decide it
me: Likely doesn't need saying, but there was nothing playing into our decisions from the past, for the record, and we hope that there's no bitterness over there
Jon: (although I acknowlede that I, and most(all?) of my team aren't as good of players as you)
me: yeah, of course (Skirm)
Jon: I don't think that there is
Sent at 4:52 PM on Monday
me: Well, hey, I'm the one who let the throng have their way on the failed early attack - my own conservative side would have done differently.
Jon: I think you didn't really have a chane
but it helped us a lot, we wouldn't have had the bit of a chance we did if you didn't do it
me: our stat boys varied on the numbers, but put the odds around 50/50, give or take 5% depending on who was talking
and there were some that were for it, even at only 40% - just for the shot of early resolution
Jon: yeah... I think you had 30%ish, from my numbers, you uys had a similar chance when you first came up to our capital
Sent at 4:56 PM on Monday
me: Prob. would have still gone at 30%, just not as many if the 1st didn't fluke out
anyways, our Hockey thugs should fare much better [nose smile]
Jon: lol, they are nice
me: Big upgrade over Soccer thugs
Jon: yeah, your soccer thugs didn't accomplish much
me: pretty effective choke
if not attack
Sent at 4:59 PM on Monday
Jon: oh, IT houht soccer thugs were warriors
me: oh, no, warriors were old-game names and other simple ones, skirms were soccer, axes are hockey
can't tell you what's next [smile]
Sent at 5:01 PM on Monday
Jon: I expect cats
and then I expect to die, no matter what we try to do
Sent at 5:03 PM on Monday
me: I'll post the (developing) offer in the forum - ok if I just put the whole chat?
Sent at 5:06 PM on Monday
Jon: sure
but I expect Donegeal will send you something more formally
me: Noted, this will just prime us for it and get everyone thinking.
Sent at 5:09 PM on Monday
Jon: often the forum lags behind the turn player
so it is important
me: yes
a possible aspect to include would be a point-of-no-return
Jon: ?
Sent at 5:13 PM on Monday
me: like if GS does wish to talk, would there be a point beyond which Vox wouldn't any longer (e.g. We've taken out a city)
Jon: I expect that Donegeal would still be interested in talking
and once more, if people wish to do this thing, I will back out, and they will (but I won't be involved, like I have been)
I mean, I expect we could even gift you the city as part of the deal
Sent at 5:16 PM on Monday
Jon: I guess we need to have our poll answered before that could be decided
Sent at 5:17 PM on Monday
Jon: this was something Donegeal posted this morning
Sent at 5:20 PM on Monday
me: understood - you're just advising us sooner rather than later - appreciated
Jon: diplo can be slow
me: or even non-existent, as has been the case for us lately
Jon: I tihnk you guys did well with AC
me: that got off to a good start when we had people in the role
Jon: well, with emperor we are playing faster
me: I think they're waiting for responses from us on at least two things right now...
Jon: while I think you will win, they are a strong team... you had better be careful with them
me: personally, I think 'Nana needed to assert themselves more, or AC wouldn't have felt the freedom to do 3 (!) wonders
Jon: lol, yeah
I expect itwould have helped us out also
me: just imagine if GS and AC were both in the south, and Vox were up north - oh, what a difference!
Jon: I wouldn't expect there would be any issue with us survivng then
me: no, you'd be ready to romp over 'Nana by now, and AC and GS would be in a war of attrition
Jon: a strong possibility
I wonder how the other continent is going thouh
me: I really have not idea - closed lips over there
*no idea
Jon: I knwo nothing from them.. except that Sarantium is trong
me: a little can be gleaned from the stats, but not much
Jon: yeah.. I really wonder about Blood Horde
they were strong in Civ3.. but I konw how weak they were here
because they were weaker then us for most of the time
me: I haven't been in the intersite games, so I have even less info
Jon: I haven't either
but I do know that there was bad blood between people in the game they palyed (wasn't intersite)
it cause in issue for Vox earlier, before (and after) Beta left to form Sarantium
me: huh
Jon: they have stronger issues between them then Vox and GS
really, the teams that were competitors in previous games seemed to be placed to be competitors early in this one
me: You're a Canuck iirc, right?
Jon: mope
nope
me: oh
Oh, was thinking of Beta
Jon: would like to be, I think
I have I am Canadian in my sig
me: oh, that could be it too [smile]
Jon: just at heart ;}
[wink]
me: Was thinking a Canadian Demogame team might be cool.
Jon: yeah.. then there wouldn't be lanuae issues like with the german team could have an aussie and brit team also
me: could include anyone who can pull off an "eh?" w/o sounding silly [smile]
Jon: woot
me: well, work is calling - nice chatting with you
I'll pass the info along
Jon: yeah.. just thought I would pass along Donegeal's plan proposal

[notyoueither]

Jon is an official Canadian as voted by the 1st Apolyton Parliament of Canada under PM Zylka with all party agreement. It was unanimous.

I think his citizenship was the only issue dealt with before it devolved into a lot of spam. It was a lot like the real thing in Ottawa.

[notyoueither]

Donegal wanted to chat. It got interesting.

Donegeal:
Got time to talk?
nye:
hi. what about?
Donegeal:
Vox/GS
nye:
ok.
Donegeal:
It's plain to see you guys got us beat
Donegeal:
has been for some time
Donegeal:
We wish to talk terms for our surrender.
nye:
i am listening
Donegeal:
Are you logging?
nye:
yes
nye:
should i be?
Donegeal:
Cool... I don't know how to use this very well
Donegeal:
anyway... here are some terms
nye:
'File'
'Save As'
nye:
go ahead
Donegeal:
We want to keep the Voice.
Donegeal:
We also want to be able to build 2-3 more cities...
Donegeal:
But we understand your concern about us attacking you, so we are willing to let you keep any number of units in all/any territory we have without us entering your
Donegeal:
As I stated about the AC/Banana war, tech might become an issue for you and AC... we will let you deterime our tech path
Donegeal:
we will let you determine our milatary strength size and units.
Donegeal:
We over our UN votes if needed.
nye:
i have one question.
why would anyone on GS accept this?
Donegeal:
Mainly the tech situation.
Donegeal:
like I said, a two tech continent would fall behind tech wise to a three or 4 civ second continent
nye:
you think the other 4 will successfully cooperate for a long period of time?
Donegeal:
no... but 3 might
nye:
3 is a very unstable number, especially when there are mercs and hordes over there.
nye:
this side could have been peaceful... were it not for a combination of circumstances... there is no way the other side is going to keep it together
Donegeal:
speaking of which... why did you guys attack?
nye:
and if they do. oh well
nye:

Donegeal:
speaking of which... why did you guys attack?

we told you we would
nye:
you went ahead and moved the unit
Donegeal:
we kept our side of the deal...
nye:
what deal?
Donegeal:
we agreed to keep al our military units away...
Donegeal:
sorry... my little one is making some noise...
nye:
ok.

we meant your scout
nye:
and we moved a warior to demonstrate our intentions
nye:
there's also the matter that you were not open and upfront with us from the get go.

trying to hide contact was a msitake
Donegeal:
that was to try to keep you off balance if you attacked... we knew we were close and if you attacked a few turns could have been very valuable... so if you thought we were a different direction, all the better...
nye:
ok. you asked why we attacked. i've told you
Donegeal:
ok... so what would it take to keep us in the game?
nye:
i don't know that is possible.
Donegeal:
ok...
nye:
i am listening out of courtesy, and curious to see if you could come with something creative. keeping the Voice is anti-creative
nye:
one of the major reasons for war is the real estate situation. caps too close
Donegeal:
Yes, but there is no way my team would agree to anything that involved giving up the Voice...
nye:
well then. i assume we are done?
Donegeal:
oh... well we can just not build c....
Donegeal:
oops... I for got to mention that we would give you any resourse that we have upon request...
nye:
early war has costs. one of the benefits of winning it is having a second civ start (hich tends to be very 'rich')
Donegeal:
yeah... except we started very poorly...
nye:
suuuuurre
Donegeal:
we did... we all hit ourselves on the head now for building on a flood plain...
nye:
if there are unseen resources, all the better, and more reason to finish this, aside from the culture power in our first ring...
nye:
face it, done, we we screwed by the map rng.
behaviour at contact didn;t help a bad situation
Donegeal:
Hmmm... Vox and GS will always be connected...
nye:
it is seeming so
Donegeal:
So you really don't think peace is possible if we keep the voice?
nye:
but i can assure you, this is based on this game. not the last
nye:

Donegeal:
So you really don't think peace is possible if we keep the voice?

i can't speak for GS, but what would you say if you were in our position?
Donegeal:
Given your position... no, I don't really think it's possible...
nye:
so why ask?
Donegeal:
look at the map... we built a city directly on a horse... we are desparate.
nye:
it's just a game, done. don't worry about it too much. some decisions were made early and they didn't work out. there'll be more games.
Donegeal:
Oh I know... I'm just saying that our team is desparate to stay alive in this game... that is why I am making this plea for peace.
nye:
ok. i will post it. just don;t invest too much in the answer. ok?
Donegeal:
All we have right now is hope...
nye:
to be honest, i doubt you'll get an official answer to what has been discussed. it is unconnected from the reality of the possible, imo
Donegeal:
Also... if you do choose to eliminate us, I ask that you be kind in the aftermath, and in the actions of doing so...
nye:
elaborate?
Donegeal:
there are 6 active members of Vox, and they will flee to other teams...
Donegeal:
Oh... BTW, I hope that no one on GS was upset by my stories... I wrote most of them a long time ago...
nye:
i don't think anyone is, but you have to be careful when attaching forum personalities to fiction... iow, it's bad idea
nye:
about 'fleeing' i think the only problem would be joinging teams with no contact.
Donegeal:
Yeah... In the originals, I had just random names... i edited in some GS names hoping for some of you to play along... I did it just for fun
Donegeal:
sorry if it upset anyone.
nye:
doing it without permission is a recipe for flame wars.
thankfully nobody much cared
Donegeal:
Yeah... going to other teams... something outside of the game GS should think about...
nye:
what's to think about?
Donegeal:
If all 6 of us flee to AC, that is a big number of active players who will now have an inside influence of AC...
Donegeal:
(Personally, I'm leaning to join you guys actually)
nye:
so, you are saying that members of vox would combine to perpetuate the war beyond it's conclusion in game?

i would be very disappointed in such behaviour
nye:
i'd also doubt AC would accept twits like that
Donegeal:
No... not beyond this game... but in this game... Vox will be eliminated, but will still live on in 'culture" as influence on AC.
nye:
yeah. right.
nye:
now you're annoying me, done.
Donegeal:
Please don't think that anything is going beyond this game. Not in any way shape or form is this going beyond the game...
nye:
well. i'll tell you what. if you persist in wanting to push this... novel line of negotiation... you, and the rest of vox can go to hell as far as i am concerned.

i doubt very much AC would accpet many such worm-tongues, but i'll urge GS to take our chances and try to find novel ways of making vox's destruction as humiliating and painful as possible
Donegeal:
Hmmm... wow.
nye:
yes. wow
Donegeal:
Where is this hostile aggression coming from?
nye:
i am very disappointed, done
Donegeal:
In what?
nye:
your attempted bull**** to extort life for your team
nye:
you are losing a war. deal with it like a man. stop squirming
Donegeal:
Nye, now your being an ass
nye:
i am not that ass in this chat
Donegeal:
10... 9...8...7....6...5...4..3...2..1...
Donegeal:
there... all better.
nye:
put yourself in my place. how do you take these empty threats, but threats none the less?
nye:
the idea that Vox could take over AC is funny though.
Donegeal:
Threats? They are not threats... they are facts... In this game, there will be animosity that we were eliminate... and that animosity will follow where we go... its a fact of human nature NYE. I just want to make sure you guys think about all the possible ramifications of elimianting us. We are going to go somewhere.
nye:
if you are accepted.
Donegeal:
I never said we'd take over... I just said that our players would become members of another team and they'd get there with a natural distain for GS.
nye:
yes. you are attempting to use your continued existance as a forum poster to snivel your way out of a losing situation.

i am polishing my black ball
Donegeal:
No.. what goes on in forums (I guess I'm talking about OTF and such) has no bearing on the game and vise versa. What I'm saying is a large influx of Vox refugees would want to join other teams... and they'd carry influence with them.
nye:
you're snivelling and coniving.

'large influx of Vox'?


nye:
oh, and you've pissed me off
nye:
does jon miller know yopu are doing this?
Donegeal:
Sure... 6 Voxians... how many active AC members are there? How many Active GS members are ther? 6 is a large number when dealing with these terms...
nye:
oh. now you're going to take over GS?
nye:
listen, done. quit while your behind.
nye:
isn;t it obvious this is not being productive?
Donegeal:
NYE... please don't get upset... I'm not trying to piss you off... hell all I'm really trying to do is ask you not to change the name of The Voice when you take it... please settle down.
nye:
that is not what you asked
nye:
that is the first time the name of a city has come up
Donegeal:
lets just both take a step back and count to 10...
nye:
i am not irrational, done. i am angry and disappointed at you behaviour in this chat
Donegeal:
please settle... When i first started to mention this... I asked you to do this is a ... oh damn.. a nice manor... something like that... That was me leading up to asking about not changing the name of the Voice.
nye:
i am angry at the attempt to influence us with behaviour after elimination

i am disappointed that you would do this.
Donegeal:
... I am not trying to stop you from taking us out. I am talking about the manor in which you do it...
Donegeal:
ok... I started this in trying to preserve VOx, but you made it clear that that wasn't possible if we were to keep the Voice...
nye:
gs has never dissed an opponent. i am not sure why you are concerned
Donegeal:
NYE... is there anyone else who i can talk to on GS? I am getting the impression that what I'm trying to say isn't being translated very well.
nye:
no one else. i am listening
nye:
if we are past the threats of affecting relations with another team, go ahead and ask what you want to ask
Donegeal:
But you have already said you are pissed. I will talk but please try to settle down.
nye:
i am angry with your behaviour in this chat.

i am still listening. make your case or state your requests
nye:
and if you ask me to settle down one more time, we can do our talking another time, or never would be a better time
Donegeal:
You have missinterpreted what I am saying. That is why you are upset with my behaviour. Have I ever upset you in chat before? Why would that happen now? You know from years of experience with me that I am not like the impression that you seem to have take from what I have said. Some type of misscommunication /misinteruptation must have taken place.
nye:
you quite clearly threatened gs with your behaviour after elimination.

that is not a good way to open the topic of being treated with respect.

if you can understand that, go on. if you want to continue to discuss the preceding, let's not bother
Donegeal:
Ok... before we go on, please remember that after Vox is eliminated, GS is where I was planing on going.
nye:
so you have said
Donegeal:
Here is the way I am meaning things... and this might take a while to type, so please be patient...
Donegeal:
Now this is where I am coming... just me... or my bloodline...(like in the story). I go to GS I will rp the part of a prisoner (sorta like beta did in the original) while my non-rp votes on matters will have as little bias concerning Vox as possible, it is impossible to say that there will not be some left over Vox influence. as an example, lets say the Voice is the last city taken and I join...
Donegeal:
your team before the end turn button. There will be a vote as to wether to keep or destroy the voice (yes I know that there is no reason to destroy it, this is just an example), I will vote to keep it around. That would be the influence left over from Vox.
Donegeal:
now I cannot speak for other members, but I can see some type in Vox influence left over in ways similar to that.
Donegeal:
Please tell me that I am making more sence to you... I sure hope so...
nye:
i don't see the point. the scenario you describe is unpossible
Donegeal:
Yes I know... it is just an example... not a very likely one I''l admit...
nye:
so what does this have to do with the next 10 turns? try to find another example
Donegeal:
All I was saying is that there will be left over 'Vox Culture' no matter where the Voxian go.
nye:
i don't know how concerned i should be.

these things seldom go the way you think they might
Donegeal:
ok... well here... this is what I want for Vox:
Donegeal:
I want the Voice, the Horse City and space for two more cities (along the East coast would be best for both teams).
Donegeal:
We let you determine our tech path and troop makeup and size.
Donegeal:
We let you have any resourse in our lands you want.
Donegeal:
We let you roam free and we stay out of GS (unless you ask for us).
Donegeal:
We offer up any UN votes.
Donegeal:
If that is not possible, we ask that you leave the name of the Voice alone in conquest.
nye:
the last point is the only likely one
nye:
as i said, we do not normally try to diss opponents
Donegeal:
Well I tell you, if we are not going to stay in this game as Vox, it is by far my most important one.
nye:
as for vox staying in the game with the voice... i can tell you right now, right here, less likely that the Yankees winnign the Super Bowl.
Donegeal:
hehehehe
Donegeal:
Jeter takes the snap...
nye:
hehe
nye:
i would have tought they would put a pitcher at qb
Donegeal:
ok... so I can tell you that Vox will not accept peace without us keeping the Voice...
nye:
darn
Donegeal:
(I am not a BB fan... I just wnet with whatever Yankee name that came to my head..)
Donegeal:
So... bloddy fight in the Voice it is...
Donegeal:
er bloody...
nye:
the Yankees would pay Thiesman 20 million to come back for the one game
nye:
and the Voice will run in blood
Donegeal:
darn
Donegeal:
you still pissed, or can I :beer: ya?
nye:
:beer:
nye:
a word to the wise... i don;t know any team that would react positively to the above
nye:
it's waaay gamey
nye:
and threatening
Donegeal:
if there is any lingering fear about what i was trying to do or say that might have effected your personal opinion of me, please PM me and we can disscuss things very openly... as I have always been with you.
nye:
and,,, just offended my sense of honour

there! i said the H word...

Honour, honour,, honour, honour, honour, honour, honour, honour, honour, honour, honour, honour, honour, honour, honour, honour, honour, honour, honour, honour, honour, honour, honour, honour, honour, honour, honour, honour, honour, honour, honour, honour

I am now damned.
Donegeal:
I was wondering who was going to say it first...
Donegeal:
nasty *****...
nye:
nasty ***** wasn't it. we laughed though
Donegeal:
Ok... well have fun in the bloody mess of the Voice... and clean up your forum, cause I plan on coming over...
nye:
if we have to hide our rude jokes about vox we'll have to delete the whole thing. not much to see i'm afraid.
Donegeal:
Bah... the Vox jokes are fine... just the personal stuff about me...
nye:
i should ask snoopy if we get to capture your forum if we eliminat you.
Donegeal:
hahahahahahahahahahaha....
Donegeal:
actually that is very interesting....
nye:
actually, it is.
Donegeal:
look into it if you want... seeing as I have nothing to gain by it, the onus is on you.
nye:
should have to be agreed before hand by the teams, no matter how much snoopy wants to expand his powers...
Donegeal:
Anyway... I'm on my own tonight with two little girls under the age of 2. Moring is going to be so much fun...
nye:
and actually, the site admins would kill it once they realised the potential tinder for flames
nye:
how are your kids?
Donegeal:
I was kinda think not the entire team, but one or two people to poke there heads around.
Donegeal:
Well, the little one, 5 moths old, is teething and wakes up frequently... the older one, 21 months, sleeps through.
nye:
sorry. my connection dropped.

is there anything else?

[notyoueither]

I am unsure what to do with this chat. I've reread it, and I was not out of place in my reaction.

The threats about what happens after are not to be ignored.

Do we treat the whole team with the taint of Grimer? That is harsh.

We could discuss this with AC in advance, and cut off every member of Vox from 'survival', but is that fair?

[Hot Mustard]

Originally posted by notyoueither
I am unsure what to do with this chat. I've reread it, and I was not out of place in my reaction.

The threats about what happens after are not to be ignored.

Do we treat the whole team with the taint of Grimer? That is harsh.

We could discuss this with AC in advance, and cut off every member of Vox from 'survival', but is that fair?

Wow, NYE. I have to disagree with the bolded part above. As I read that through from Vox's PoV, it seemed you were just itching for something to get your back up about from the beginning, and once you had it, you wouldn't listen to anything.

Not that I think we should accept peace, not rename the city, or do anything differently - I just don't see what Don did to deserve the attitude.