Meditation, Polytheism or neither?

[Arrian]

Ok, we've got to pick our next tech to research. I am of the opinion that we are in a position to grab a religion and thus should do it, but the question (for me) is which religion?

Further, others may chime in with reasons to not go for religion yet.

Blake has pointed out that Polytheism leads to Monotheism and the wonders of Organized Religion.

Meditation, of course, leads to Priesthood (Oracle). It's also cheaper.

I was thinking that we're unlikely to go for the Oracle. I was, however, pondering the utility of the "alternative" CS slingshot (requires a great prophet and avoiding Masonry. There is a strat forum thread on it buried ~10 pages deep). This would favor Polytheism. Coupled with the allure of Org. Rel. (especially w/regard to poprushing in Blake's capable hands), I'm leaning Polytheism for now.

Discuss, then vote. I'm not voting just yet.

-Arrian

[Dominae]

Are we reasonably certain we will get either Religion we go for? Assuming this is the case:

Meditation:

+ Allows us to proceed to other stuff 2-3 turns earlier.
+ Enables Monasteries which combo well with Flood Plains.
+ Potentially wastes another team's research if they are going for a quick Religion.
+ Expands our borders (level 3) a couple of turns sooner.
+ Provides a means of spreading our Religion before Organized Religion.
+ Instills fear in the other teams that we will clean up on Religion.
- Does not help us on our way to Monotheism, Monarchy, etc.

Polytheism:

+ Puts us closer to Organized Religion which is good for Libraries.
+ Gives a good shot at a second Religion.
- Puts us that much further from Archery, Pottery, etc.

Note that both Meditation and Polytheism are on the Priesthood (Oracle) track.

I personally feel Polytheism is the "greedier" of the two options. Monotheism is not exactly a cheap tech, and in order to benefit fully from Organized Religion we have to be constructing buildings instead of units (although we can delay Monotheism as much as we want). We are Spiritual so we are the best team in the game to benefit from this strategy. Ironically, one of the buildings we would want Org. Rel. to help us with, Monasteries, is not on the Monotheism track.

Because I am greedy and because it would make the game more interesting, I favor Polytheism.

[Dominae]

Oh, and if we want an early Religion, I suggest we do not delay and just research it after Mysticism.

[Arrian]

I agree there entirely.

Is polytheism "greedier" ? Maybe. In that it's a slightly more expensive tech, yes. But really not by that much... (in my SP experience @ this level, about 2 turns more to research).

And while I do tend to build a bunch of monasteries in SP, frankly it seems to me that getting Monotheism (not right away, mind you) and using Org. Rel. is clearly the better play here. Of course we will research (or trade for!) Meditation at *some point* so we can build monasteries.

Anyway, despite the cons you listed, you favor polytheism, so I guess we agree.

-Arrian

[Blake]

Dominae sums the pros and cons up well.

My vote goes with Polytheism.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Arrian
Is polytheism "greedier"? Maybe. In that it's a slightly more expensive tech, yes. But really not by that much... (in my SP experience @ this level, about 2 turns more to research).

Agreed.

Basically the way I see it is this: are we willing to slow down our research toward Pottery, Bronze Working, etc. by a couple of turns in order to advance our agenda with respect to Organized Religion?

While I'm a big fan of Organized Religion, it's very much a builder Civic and requires a certain level of commitment (including the cost of Masonry and Monotheism). That means that we might not get around to using it until much later. If we know this in advance, it makes sense to go for Meditation first and forget about Monotheism until we need it.

However, if the two extra turns are not going to hamper our growth/defense, we should do Polyetheism instead.

[Dominae]

Another argument in favor of researching Polytheism is that our chances of getting tech discounts increases. On the assumption that a majority of the other teams research Pottery, Bronze Working, etc. first, by the time we get around to those they should cost us less.

[Hot Mustard]

I'm not convinced. We know that Vox is close (barring a very long river), and we've already delayed units/Hunting/Archery for the Buddism route. Further delay is more risk, and Org. Rel. would increase the risks even more.

[Blake]

We wont be getting Monotheism before getting pottery, archery and bronze working. POSSIBLY before Animal Husbandry.

So in any case Polytheism is just a head start towards Monotheism, if we decide it's good.

The nice thing about our start is we don't have urgent need for worker techs, a worker can stay busy building a mine or two and some road.

[Arrian]

Yeah, I was thinking something like this:

Polytheism-Hunting-AH-Archery-Pottery
or
Polytheism-Hunting-Pottery-Archery-AH

Monotheism comes later.

-Arrian

[Harovan]

What, you think Vox could attack us early?

You surely jest.

It never has happened, and never will.

On topic, Polytheism is ok for religion, but lets get to skirmishers soon. Arrians first route sounds pretty well.

[Blake]

We need agriculture (or fishing, but lets say ag for now) before we can do Pottery.
So really, Polytheism->Hunting->Archery looks like the best deal.
After that I think it's best to train the 2 skirmishers to send a message to anyone who scouts us... that message being "nuh-huh", if they were thinking of doing something dumb... like attacking with the warrior, or archer rushing.

After that I think it's best to go ag->pottery so we can get some cottages up, then bronze working so we can get the whip swinging (and reveal copper!).

I don't really see any way around getting archery, pottery and bronze working in that order. The good news is, once we get pottery our research really explodes thanks to the cottages. I don't see how any other team can exceed our research (match it... possibly), so we'll have a most excellent shot at Monotheism or Code of Laws... that is assuming the others follow similar logic about the necessity of pottery and BW.

[notyoueither]

I haven't voted yet, as I am waiting for someone to make a case for something other than Polyth.

In the meantime I am leaning towards Polyth since major contributors are urging it. I would do so on the condition that we do something like Arrian outlined above: Poly-Hunting-(Archery-Ag-Pottery in the order dictated by circumstances).

As SR alluded to above, you can't play these things too builderish. At least you can't if you plan on seeing the middle stages of the game.

[Aginor]

OK...

Best intelligence suggests that the only possible players in the religion game are Vox and Sara. It appears that Banana went Mining. It appears that AC, the Horde and the Mercs lag us in tech research. (Good $$$ says that the Mercs went BW. AC popped something, probably AH, no research yet. The Horde is a non-factor at 10 commerce.)

Something REALLY funky is going on here, though. Take a look at the new demographics. One civ has grown, and that's Vox. They're running 13 commerce, 3 shields, and 5 food. No one else could possibly be 13 commerce at the moment. To get to where they are now with the growth cycle, they had to be running 5 food before; also, the governor put them on 6, remember. Now they're KILLING their growth to max out commerce. Hint, hint.

Also note the rival situation. Average commerce is 11. This suggests that there is a 13, a 12, an 11, and 3 10s out there. It's the only way that the rival average is 11. (13+12+11+10+10+10 = 66. 66/6 = 11. Leaves us in fourth. Also, it's the only thing consistent with the antecedent data and one civ having grown.)

Vox probably researched up Myst, is soldiering on to a religion, and put themselves on an unimproved Plains Gold tile on a river from their 10 commerce start in order to beat Sara to it. Clever, eh? They must REALLY want a religion to burn their whole start like this.

OK, now that we've got that nailed down - what is Vox going to do with Myst? Given that they are NOT Industrious and that they appear to be trying to slam out as much commerce as humanly possible, it's my guess that they're running towards Meditation. As noted, they knew it was a slam dunk out of their start given the founding delay and first turn advantage, and decided to pounce on it, knowing that they could run the Plains hill if necessary to outtech anyone else. Discovering that this was indeed an issue with Sara, they moved to that tile this turn.

Now, Sara MAY be at 12 Commerce. It's either them or AC. Alternately, Sara could have been at 10 and hit Fishing last turn, rather than having been at 12 and hit Meditation. If I were AC and I wanted a religion, I'd go Poly anyway for the Parthenon, particularly if I'd seen some Marble lying around. As Sara, the door's open either way. If they're the 12 they should have seen Vox hit a civvy tech and read the writing on the wall, but nothing guarantees that they researched Myst or that they didn't blunder and go for Meditation, though. Either of those possibilities opens the Poly door wide open.

It's my best guess that Sara's the 12. However, my final conclusion stands - we're totally screwed if we go for Meditation and only possibly screwed if we go Poly. There's a low but significant chance that a 12 commerce Sara wanted to go Meditation and get the research over with, knowing that they had the best research to that point.

Research Poly and cross our fingers is about all we can do. It appears that we are probably facing the doomsday scenario I suggested earlier - two rivals determined to get a religion, both of whom are more efficient researchers than we are. Strategically, if we want a religion the best move is to go for the one it's possible neither player is making a move on (Poly) and burn the loser of a Meditation race (if indeed one is taking place). If nothing else, it puts us closer to Organized Religion up the Masonry line if we fail to achieve our goal.

Edit: see below

[Blake]

Well the pro of no religion? It's no gamble. We get our scouts out faster. That's the main benefit actually because our research isn't too tight.

The pro of Meditation? Well... we will know more with the benefit of hindsight. But mainly we get on to other stuff 2 turns quicker. Does that help? Well.... we get the scout out 2 turns quicker... we probably get the first cottage done 2 turns quicker.

Meditation leads to Philosophy, Poly leads to Monotheism and Literature. Both lead to Priesthood.
In the long run we'll probably end up researching both.

hmmm... question... can the other teams know that we aren't the +12? I mean other than the +12 themselves...

I think we'll probably be pinned as wanters of poly... so we can get Organized religion in the longer run.