Civ Choice

[Arrian]

Dominae,

I agree that we cannot plan on getting the Oracle. In fact, we might do better to specifically plan on NOT getting it.

Skirmishers... well that depends on the circumstances. Our start (do we have lots of juicy stuff around that we can leverage best if we are peaceful, or are we close to a civ we're worried about) will dictate that, I think. I'm not opposed to it in general.

-Arrian

[Krill]

Planning on getting a wonder is not a particulary good strat, I'll agree there. And that is the reason I would suggest a more cottage heavy strat, if we were to aim for CoL/Confucianism as our religion...

That is one of the things we could plan for. The Skirmisher rush...now, that is risky. I would probably be safer to go for such a thing right off the bat, starting research on hunting on turn 1, and trying to get a warrior for homeland defence outwhile growing to size 2, then worker, then skirmishers. Find someone to rush with the warrior first, then scout around.

The biggest problem is that it is a choke, and not a rush, unless we find someone with just a warrior or two for defence when the skirmishers are spotted right outside their borders. We would have to go for BW and IW (hopefully just the former, and yes I admit that it is a bit of a gamble) to actually crush them once and for all.

[Dominae]

Yeah, CIV is more about choking than rushing.

This may have some consequences for diplomacy: if we choke, we must expect to be at war or on that civ's bad side for the foreseeable future. They will kick and scream as long as they're being choked, so it would be to our advantage to finish them as quickly as possible. But that means we would have to follow through on our choke sooner than later, which is a major inconvenience.

On the world stage, I expect that an outright war would probably be looked upon more favorably than an opportunistic choke.

[Krill]

Well, yeah. It would also be a good idea, if there was a third party civ on the continent, if they would be willing to help us

Get them to do some of the lifting, and we should still have enough land to build into for long enough, and set ourselves up for a later war when the economy has recoveered and matured.

Dipomacy works both ways...

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Dominae
The Religion question we can sort decide on in advance, though: if we prioritize it, we have a good shot at founding one, it's just a question of what we are willing to give up to get it.

That's the problem: as little as possible... but we'll be able to plan a bit better on this once we know which civ we've got, and which the others have picked.

I think we should aim for our own religion, and any off-chance to get another one later, we should take as well. If not going for a religion, we have to take other cities, it's as easy as that. we can build units, ut in that case we'll have to use them early on.

I'm not sure it's such a great idea to depend on the Oracle so much. Almost every team will want it, and at least half of them will try for it. I actually think that going for one of the three early Religions (even without Mysticism) is safer than expecting to get Confucianism via Code of Laws. In other words, if we think getting a Religion is important, we should not depend on the Oracle to deliver it to us.

That's precisely why I think we should try to aim for it, but in such a way no harm is done in case we fail.

The last path I described handles exactly that: a shot at Budhism (BTW, in case we know only one team starts with Mysticism, we might want to go for Polytheism instead), after which a near-certain Oracle build will deny it to others. And by gaining e.g. writing, we have the time to backfill some techs to best defend ourselves. So, we go for a religion, we go for Oracle, but we don't rely on the Oracle to get a religion. In case we would get it, it would help in racing towards CoL if we decide to, of course.

One remark here: generally I always try to go the high-science route, I always have done that. It's only one of the possible options for a game... while I wouldn't recommend it, we might prioritize IW over writing...

Early Cottages and a Financial civ are great, true, but there are definitely associated costs: Cottage tiles do not help produce Settlers/Workers faster, nor do they help in building up an adequate defense (or building that Wonder!). Setting up your capital as a research instead of a production powerhouse is a risk in MP.

I don't like setting my capital as a research center in SP either... I rarely build more then 2 cottages near it. However, I will try to get an academy asap: as long as the palace bonus (+8 commerce) still matters, that extra 50% is huge.

Regarding Skirmishers, would we be willing to use them to harass a neighbor early on, as Krill suggests? Traditionally we have been more cautious diplomatically, trying to make friends with everyone and hoping that our superior (or so we think!) empire-building skills would prevail. In this, we treat our opponents much like we do the AI. Would we be willing to take a "reputation hit" from leveraging our Skirmishers to weaken an opponent before they get properly set up?

I think it's map dependent, but I'm willing to do it, yes. We've played an agressive game in PTWDG1, however only started 1 war, very late too. Choking a civ might not be anticipated, and thus a very powerful thing to do.

However, not without gains, and with the very distinct understanding that that team has to be annihilated down the line.

But this is very map dependent: pangaea? probably no choke, as we open ourselves for risks on other fronts. 2-team continent? Yeah, why not. 2-team continent with a visible continent on our side, the other part isolated? Definately. Teams aren't allowed to communicate directly before making contact in-game, right? In that case, Arrian's deception holds... "we've not done anything to the other team, they must have been destroyed by barbs!"

DeepO

[Arrian]

Choke in order to conquer, yeah. Or don't choke at all. Choke and then back off... works against the AI but I'm dubious about the impact in an MP game.

Would you guys consider researching BW right off the bat, or maybe 2nd (if we're the Mali)? The advantage would be to see if we have copper nearby and thus know if an early axe rush is viable.

Meh, we need to see the start before we decide such things. If we have cows and pigs lying about the place, we want Animal Husbandry, so it's Hunting -> AH (and hope for horsies!). If we have wheat/rice/corn... we may have to consider agriculture first (which actually would be a bit of a bummer, IMO).

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Teams aren't allowed to communicate directly before making contact in-game, right? In that case, Arrian's deception holds... "we've not done anything to the other team, they must have been destroyed by barbs!"

Surely there would be enough chatter on the public forum to give it away.

-Arrian

[DeepO]

Of course.... but chatter doesn't harm in the same way as detailed battle plans going all around the globe.

I mean, if someone says something like: "heh, there is this Stormian unit who has been hanging around our bars for ages", it's different than seeing from day to day a couple of skirmishers pillaging the lands of an opponent. Chokes take long... and would be a form of extortion too (techs for freedom!)

DeepO

[NicodaMax]

My choices are:

1) Asoka
2) Saladin
3) Montezuma

I've been reading this thread and everything I could've said has been said. My choices speak for themselves, I'm convinced mysticism is a must/have in the beginning and grabing an early religion. I'd have to leave at #4 my inicial choice of Catherine.

Updating the vote...

Mansa Musa 20: Arrian 3, dejon 2, DeepO 1, Krill 3, Aro 2, Dominae 3, Theseus 3, Solomwi 2, asleepathewheel 1
Saladin 16: dejon 3, DeepO 3, Aro 3, Dominae 1, Theseus 1, Solomwi 3, NicodaMax 2
Qin Shi Huang 8: Arrian 2, Krill 2, Dominae 2, asleepathewheel 2
Montezuma 5: DeepO 2, Theseus 2, NicodaMax 1
Elizabeth 4: Arrian 1, asleepathewheel 3
Isabella 2: Krill 1, Aro 1
Asoka 4: dejon 1, NicodaMax 3
Alexander 1: Solomwi 1

--

Arrian: 1. Mansa Musa, 2. Qin, 3. Elizabeth
dejon: 1) Saladin, 2) Mansa Musa, 3) Asoka
DeepO: 1. Saladin, 2. Montezuma, 3. Mansa Musa
Krill: 1. Mansa Musa, 2. Qin, 3. Izzy
Aro: 1. Saladin, 2. Mansa Musa, 3. Isabella
Dominae: 1. Mansa, 2. Qin, 3. Saladin
Theseus: 1. Mansa Musa, 2. Montezuma, 3. Saladin
Solomwi: 1. Saladin, 2. Mansa Musa, 3. Alexander
asleepathewheel: 1. Elizabeth, 2. Qin, 3. Mansa
NicodaMax 1. Asoka, 2. Saladin, 3. Montezuma

[Arrian]

I wonder if this will come down to the wire like in the PTWDG (Egypt & Iroquois tied, Egypt won the tiebreaker).

-Arrian

[Krill]

Well, seeing as barely a third of all of our members have voted, it could well be that even an unnammed civ was chosen...

Nah, I reckon it will come down to Mansa and Saladin, chosen by second and third votes mostly...

[DeepO]

If it would be so close, we better have a second poll just between the two. Or to rank the top 3...

DeepO

[Arrian]

Only a third have voted? VOTE, people, VOTE!!

-Arrian

[Dominae]

Silly lurkers! De-lurk!

[Arrian]

Well, having read the Vel thread, I think he's got an excuse! Incredible.

As for the rest of you, vote if ye be not hospitalized! Yarr.

-Arrian