Shall we ask for peace?

[UnOrthOdOx]

Sarantium failed to cover 2 workers, and our chariot in the southern stack dutifully captured them. The chariot and the workers should be safe from counter from Sarantium.


With these workers, Sarantium will have technically paid it's debt.

Question is, do we want peace? Can we trust them enough for peace?

I'll finish playing and send the save in a bit, but we should think of this before the next turn.

[UnOrthOdOx]

I'm of the opinion we need to allow them peace if they want it, due to our concept.

Yeah, they'll probably just rebuild and kill us later, possibly with help from the other continent.

We do have potential justification in extending the war, as they DID conspire with the Horde to sacrifice rented units for the express purpose of weakening us.

[OzzyKP]

I'm ok with sparing them, but I think we should require some kind of reparations.

- Units lost
- Units tied up with attacking their cities (like a rental)
- Etc.

They should be indebted a few techs to us and some resources at least.

[UnOrthOdOx]

I am very much against charging folks for units lost after we begin reparations. Then wars with us just snowball to where no one would ever be able to pay. Which is a fine way to go after domination, but not very mercenary.

If they had actually been the ones damaging US, or had taken our cities, I'ld agree those defenders and costs should be added. This is not the case here.

They've already paid for the infraction from before. Do we really want to permanently cripple them? A crippled Sarantium will be of no use to us from a completely mercenary point of view. They've already suffered quite heavily.

When the Horde was in the same situation, as soon as they agreed to pay he original infraction, we accepted, we didn't seek further compensation for the years of tying up our units. I do not see how we can treat Sarantium any different now.

[UnOrthOdOx]

I've sent an email and several PM's out, hopefully we get some more opinions in here.

[UnOrthOdOx]

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=5210494#post5210494

Between that, and several "off the record" PM's from members of Sarantium, I'm officially changing my vote to say the we should mop the floor with Sarantium.

They plain can't be trusted to uphold a peace agreement. Look, they held a grudge against the Horde from a previous game.

[Octavian X]

Part of me thinks that an attempt to wipe out Sarantium would really be the death of the whole Mercenary concept, and I'd really like to see it go on for as long as possible, and mostly in tact. We can give them a choice between a mild crippling or complete eradication while in (mostly) good conscience remaining within our original bounds:

We have made it clear in the past that we will uphold our contracts. Our action against Sarantium is part of a contract, one which they initiated against themselves and which has been fulfilled. As part of that obligation, we should declare a unilateral cease-fire.

We have also made it clear in the past that we shall defend ourselves if provoked. To this point, our war has been about fulfilling that first contract. Therefore, the special considerations of:

• defense of our homeland and neutrality;
• economic cost of the war effort itself; and
• proven untrustworthiness of the Imperial Sarantine government

require a second contract which Saratium must fulfill. They can accept relatively moderate concessions (worded differently, of course), like a little gold, a tech or two, and some territorial concessions as payback.

Or, they may pay us back by being completely eradicated. After all, this is a war that they brought on themselves, and which they may have avoided at any number of times. Stabbing a neutral nation in the back is a dishonorable act that you should expect to pay for in the end.

(edit: some day, I will learn to proofread my posts)

[UnOrthOdOx]

Alrighty. That sounds like a plan.

The question then becomes what do we want?

Sailing. They have nothing else in the way of techs.

We could ask for their units near us.

How about instead of them giving us territory (which would be difficult for us to maintain with all the culture they put into it), the creation of a demilitarized zone? No cities, no roads, nothin. 2 tiles wide. On their side of the previous border agreement.

[OzzyKP]

We could ask for future techs too.

[UnOrthOdOx]

The question is HOW MUCH.

The only answer I can come up with is to go back and see what all we've lost.

I'm very opposed to charging them rental for the entire course of the war. That's not how we handled the Horde. Losses, I can accept. I'll try to get those numbers, in the mean time, I'll contact them explaining we are declaring a cease fire until this is worked out.

[rush]

I haven't been playing Civ 4 for several months .... does it cost 1 gold per turn to maintain each unit like C3 ? Perhaps we can charge them this way ?

[UnOrthOdOx]

Not exactly, the cost fluctuates. So many for free, different costs for in your territory, vs neutral, vs enemy.

I don't know the full details, and it would be a pain to look it up. Not to mention our numbers have steadily increased as this went on.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Looking up losses now:

Turn 113, lost 2 horse archers to Sarantium stack East of Lima.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Turn 124, lost 2 horse in assault on Anhinga

[UnOrthOdOx]

I'll have to check the battle log to be sure, but I believe it was lose 4 axes on Turn 125 (but might be 3 or 5, or some other unit mixed in)

So, total 4 ponies. @50 hammers = 200 hammers
4 axe @ 35 hammers = 140 hammers

Total 340 hammers = 680 gold.

Sailing would be in the ballpark of 200. That would leave 480ish.