Turn 110 150 BC

[Slade Wilson]

Library in AB is finished-nothing in queue
foxtrot, lima, FS all working on troops
the settler will be moved to agreed spot south of AB

The Power Graph. Sarantium maintains troop production but we zoom ahead of them.

Updated power graph. Sarantium matches our troop production and horde whips some keshiks(they went down in score(population))

<img src=http://apolyton.net/upload/thumb/800/91677_Civ4ScreenShot00power.JPG>

[Slade Wilson]

Turn is in. Some events on the eastern front;lima stack of sarantium units has moved up, the foxtrot stables stack continues to move south\west of the city on hard terrain and a large(if weak) horde stack of ranged units is moving to join them



I have to say that these stacks can march to FS\foxtrot with TOTAL impunity on jungle terrain. Did i mention the lima sarantium stack has been REINforced?

[OzzyKP]

So... are we ****ed?

[Slade Wilson]

That depends on what those units are actually doing.

Im considering putting all the workers on chopping jungle\forest. FS's forests\jungles can be cleared before the enemy gets there(2 workers can clear a jungle in two turns) That said if the horde\sarantium stack near foxtrot was grouped they couldnt be killed even on grassland :/

[UnOrthOdOx]

Time to start cracking the whip.

Whipping in Lima should provide enough overrun to fill an axe next turn, or a couple more 1 turn archers, which might be a better deal right now.

Foxtrot needs serious consideration of whipping every turn, happiness be damned. Get it's axe out, and if possible another horse archer.

Actually, FS might want another horse archer too. Our enemies are very light on the spears. How many turns would that be?

What units are near/in Lima?

IIRC it's a horse archer and archer in, axe and spear 4, and a chariot/horse archer on the road network to the NW.

We also have 4 horse archers on the road near FS.

IF right, that's 6 horse archers, 1 axe, 1 spear, 1 archer.

This would be enough to stop, but admittedly not entirely eliminate, the Lima stack. If we moved All of it to the tile 2 of Lima. This prepares a kill zone 2-3 of Lima, on the grassland.

Estimated battle would play out:

Horse archer 1 dies, wounds spear
Horse archer 2 dies, wounds spear
Horse archer 3 ~50-50 on sword
Horse archer 4, kills Shock/combat 1 axe
Horse Archer 5 kills axe
Horse archer 6 kills axe
Spear kills Combat 1/medic archer
Axe kills chariot

Sarantium stack: 2 wounded spear, 1 wounded sword (worst case), 2 chariots, 1 archer.

Our stack: 2 archers (current and one made next turn), wounded axe, wounded spear, 3 wounded horse archers, another axe fresh (coming from FS now, it appears)

It also shows Sarantium this. Possibly delaying/changing their movements with this stack.

We force them to moving it, via the road, 1-2, to join with the others, it plays to our advantage right now. If they delay for more spears, it helps us just the same.




As for the other front, we should prepare on losing Foxtrot and Echo, and prepare defense of FS. Chop away, but start with forest to boost production if feasible.

All the more reason to chop in foxtrot, too. Scorched earth. Leave them no city to defend.

[Slade Wilson]

I will reply in full to your post in a moment, but in regards to scorched earth by making sure our cities are size 1 upon being captured they will be autorazed

[Slade Wilson]

Horse Archers shall hereafter be known as HA to save typing

Whipping in Lima should provide enough overrun to fill an axe next turn, or a couple more 1 turn archers, which might be a better deal right now.

Yup i think a few archers would be good


I did upgrade that chariot to a HA last turn.

This would be enough to stop, but admittedly not entirely eliminate, the Lima stack. If we moved All of it to the tile 2 of Lima. This prepares a kill zone 2-3 of Lima, on the grassland.

Estimated battle would play out:

Horse archer 1 dies, wounds spear
Horse archer 2 dies, wounds spear
Horse archer 3 ~50-50 on sword
Horse archer 4, kills Shock/combat 1 axe
Horse Archer 5 kills axe
Horse archer 6 kills axe

Spear kills Combat 1/medic archer
Axe kills chariot

Sarantium stack: 2 wounded spear, 1 wounded sword (worst case), 2 chariots, 1 archer.

Our stack: 2 archers (current and one made next turn), wounded axe, wounded spear, 3 wounded horse archers, another axe fresh (coming from FS now, it appears)

It also shows Sarantium this. Possibly delaying/changing their movements with this stack.

We force them to moving it, via the road, 1-2, to join with the others, it plays to our advantage right now. If they delay for more spears, it helps us just the same.

One problem:The sarantium stack has 4 axes, not 3. This throws your entire attack analysis off. Worldbuilder\combat sim idicate to me, unless i did something wrong, the realistic chances are they wouldnt take nearly so much damage as in your scenario and likely could decimate our stack afterwords. Quite simply civ4 heavily favours the defender and it seems we would get much more mileage using our units on defense.

From the tests i ran;
2 HA die on spear
1 might die on sword but even if it wins, its uselessly damaged
3 axes die to the other HA
Our axe\spear\archer defending a bunch of damaged units on a hill. Sarantium units;3 chariots,2 archers, axeman, 2 damaged spears, maybe damaged sword.

Our losses-2 HA minimum, most likely 3(remember an axe could kill a HA too so its very high probability of 3 HA dead) So 3 HA for 3 axes. Maybe 3 axes and a swordsman. Is this really an acceptable outcome And FS\foxtrot are going down under without HA support

As for the other front, we should prepare on losing Foxtrot and Echo, and prepare defense of FS. Chop away, but start with forest to boost production if feasible.

They appear to be ignoring echo cave, and not without good cause-its just a expansion city. FS is in relatively imminent danger of attack.

This is exactly why i wanted crossbows-the initial forces now heavily reinforced, not falling into gem kill zones and now swarming across our bad-for-defense-lands. The way the land is created we have to defend FS\foxtrot\lima all at once and due to the rough terrain these cities could easily enough be isolated from each other

[Slade Wilson]

I wonder if the Horde couldnt be manipulated into assisting us-they will obviously be the inferior party on a sarantium\horde continent and we have alot of juicy techs sarantium might not just hand over...of course any message sent would have to be worded exactly so that we are not begging anything nor conceding. ''we will pay you what sarantium is and doubled ''

i thought these guys hated each other?

Of course it wouldnt work but at this point i would try anything. (what happened to the merc traits of self preservation and untrustworthiness on the walls of ocala? )

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Slade Wilson
Horse Archers shall hereafter be known as HA to save typing



Yup i think a few archers would be good


I did upgrade that chariot to a HA last turn.



One problem:The sarantium stack has 4 axes, not 3. This throws your entire attack analysis off. Worldbuilder\combat sim idicate to me, unless i did something wrong, the realistic chances are they wouldnt take nearly so much damage as in your scenario and likely could decimate our stack afterwords. Quite simply civ4 heavily favours the defender and it seems we would get much more mileage using our units on defense.

From the tests i ran;
2 HA die on spear
1 might die on sword but even if it wins, its uselessly damaged
3 axes die to the other HA
Our axe\spear\archer defending a bunch of damaged units on a hill. Sarantium units;3 chariots,2 archers, axeman, 2 damaged spears, maybe damaged sword.

Our losses-2 HA minimum, most likely 3(remember an axe could kill a HA too so its very high probability of 3 HA dead) So 3 HA for 3 axes. Maybe 3 axes and a swordsman. Is this really an acceptable outcome And FS\foxtrot are going down under without HA support

In the above scenario. Without attacking with the axe/spear combo currently able to reach the tile 2 of Lima, we'ld have another axe and another archer, both arriving next turn, turn of the attack, one from FS, currently on the road, one finishing in Lima when we hit end turn. So, it would be 2 axes, 2 archers, 1 spear defending. But, even with Sarantium having 4 axes, that puts the combat scenario as our Combat 1 axe attacking an unpromoted axe, and our spear attacking the medic archer. I would personally take those odds.



[/quote]They appear to be ignoring echo cave, and not without good cause-its just a expansion city. FS is in relatively imminent danger of attack.

This is exactly why i wanted crossbows-the initial forces now heavily reinforced, not falling into gem kill zones and now swarming across our bad-for-defense-lands. The way the land is created we have to defend FS\foxtrot\lima all at once and due to the rough terrain these cities could easily enough be isolated from each other [/QUOTE]

Our lands are not bad for defense. The same situation that is so bad for us is bad for them as well. We need the units on those lands, not in the cities. Force them to either attack our units on that defensive terrain, or fall into those kill zones. What we need, IMO, is more horse archers.

The crossbow thing is now water under the bridge. No use bringing it up still.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Slade Wilson
(what happened to the merc traits of self preservation and untrustworthiness on the walls of ocala? )

We were hired. We fulfilled our job.

Untrustworthiness is NOT what team Merc is about. If you pay us, early and often, we're the most sure thing you can ever find.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Looking at the save.

The horse archers can't reach the tile I designate anyway.

Where's the settler going, to the desert? If so, and the fishy boat doesn't find anything, it needs to get up to net the fish.

My recomendations:

Move the scout spear in the south 3.

Move that axe in the south 8, onto the roads. Yes, it gives up a forest hill if they choose, but we can halt that stack at the gates of FS if need be.

Empty Foxtrot, move them 2 to join the axe.

Empty Lima, move 2 with the 2 archers there. Give them both the hills promo. Have those workers road, and have the spear and axe join the archers.

Move the axe east of FS towards Lima.

2 worker stack near echo, move 9 and clear that jungle.

Empty the archer in Echo, move him 9-9. Echo will poprush an archer when it hits size 2.

2 stack of horse archers, move 8-8. This puts them in a point to help either Lima or FS.

4 stack of horses, leave there.

AB Switch to archer, work pigs and copper, and 2 scientists. It's at it's happy limit, and this cuts research to 3 turns, and sets us up for a scientist quick.

Foxtrot rush the axe, place archer in que, and adjust the workforce to work the mine, gems, and horses. This gives 16 overflow and 10 HPT next turn = 26 hammers, 1 turn archer next turn. At the cost of some food, but we're trying to cut it down at the moment anyway, no problem there.

Lima, rush the archer. This gives 23 hammers overflow, plus 6 HPT towards next turn. Place archer in the que, 1 turner next turn.

[Octavian X]

Given that we're stuck between a rock and a hard place - are we sure that we don't want to try to wiggle out of it diplomatically one last time? After all, if the Horde were to decide to attack Sarantium (or the other way around), they'd have a big advantage in the ensuing fight.

Even if it doesn't work, at least we could possibly spread some distrust between the Horde and Sarantium if one side discovered that the other was planning to defect.

[Slade Wilson]

The horse archers can't reach the tile I designate anyway.

The HA can still get to the lima kill zone for next turn when the sarantium stack moves into the grassland. Note we can instabuild a road south of lima

Where's the settler going, to the desert? If so, and the fishy boat doesn't find anything, it needs to get up to net the fish.

UnO i already implemented before most of what you suggest, was waiting for more feedback. Should we really be heading for GL still? I would just nab machinery and upgrade units whenever possible in the following turns. Its unlikely we could get any benefit out of GL besides denial now. It wasnt water under the bridge to mention crossbows-i was referring to the idea when a war comes, economic considerations must be dropped for military ones. We are surely going to die and faster if we keep chasing economic development. What good is the GL exactly in a war? Its something you build when the skies are sunny and the neighbors friendly...its not like this is the GL of civ3\civ2. Its a medium yield wonder.

Our lands are not bad for defense. The same situation that is so bad for us is bad for them as well. We need the units on those lands, not in the cities. Force them to either attack our units on that defensive terrain, or fall into those kill zones. What we need, IMO, is more horse archers.

Well, its my opinion that defensive terrain works for the one with superior numbers. If the horde joins sarantium they will bring those keshiks-which would help cover versus HA.

In the above scenario. Without attacking with the axe/spear combo currently able to reach the tile 2 of Lima, we'ld have another axe and another archer, both arriving next turn, turn of the attack, one from FS, currently on the road, one finishing in Lima when we hit end turn. So, it would be 2 axes, 2 archers, 1 spear defending. But, even with Sarantium having 4 axes, that puts the combat scenario as our Combat 1 axe attacking an unpromoted axe, and our spear attacking the medic archer. I would personally take those odds.

Im rather skeptical about our combat 1 axe attacking an 'unpromoted' axeman. I imagine the sarantiums are holding back on their promotions until the need arises, as i have seen recommended for the attackers elsewhere. Its possible those units may have double promotions waiting after their annihilation of our previous stack(i will look into this later)

We were hired. We fulfilled our job.

Untrustworthiness is NOT what team Merc is about. If you pay us, early and often, we're the most sure thing you can ever find.

Thats nice, if only real life mercenaries had that kind of reputation

[Slade Wilson]

We can get literature in 3 turns by working pig\copper\2 scientists in AB. This is what you meant UnO? Shall we still build the GL then?

But we cant really. We dont have enough gold to maintain 100% science for 3 more turns and research will drop with whipping going on. I dont see how we could keep heading for GL before and i dont see how now.

Anyhow. My baby is not cooperating this morning and I'm not going to have time to get to the save before work as planned. So, we'll be a bit late. I'll get it ASAP after work if no one beats me to it.

In some kind of hurry? Why dont i just play it? I could have sent it lastnight if time was such an issue

Originally posted by Octavian X
Given that we're stuck between a rock and a hard place - are we sure that we don't want to try to wiggle out of it diplomatically one last time? After all, if the Horde were to decide to attack Sarantium (or the other way around), they'd have a big advantage in the ensuing fight.

Even if it doesn't work, at least we could possibly spread some distrust between the Horde and Sarantium if one side discovered that the other was planning to defect.

Yes i think i will work on this and give it a shot. Ive been in this situation before, not in cIV, and have a approach in mind.

[Slade Wilson]

actions taken; settler constructed city on desert tile. It can work AB's copper\mine instead of FS's as proposed, i suppose

pair of workers near echo moved to chop trees north of foxtrot. they will indeed go chop jungle but i think we could grab forest hammers for now

single worker near foxtrot now chopping forest near FS(for 24+ hammers )

workboat heading north

workers build and finish road near lima, spear\axe moved unto its tile to guard against chariots. This opens door to attacking that stack or whatnot

all horse archers placed on wheat near FS. can move to foxtrot quickly enough if needed

AB makes archer in two, grows in two.

workboat headed north

axe near foxtrot moved 8

everything that can be whipped, is whipped, with overflow arranged

spearman near horde border moved 3. no new units revealed in his LOS

It could be a math mistake on my part, but i left the granary in foxtrots queue;the city will be whipped down to size 1 sometime soon, leaving it with a decent rebound rate, the city wont be taken for half a dozen turns atleast, and i think overall it will lead to more hammers than just whipping it down to nothing. And the city also will have forest hammers coming in to help boost production.