Sarantium Chat index.

[UnOrthOdOx]

This is mostly an outline for me, but please follow any 'rules' I post if you are going to attend.

Please post and/or edit in your name if you plan to attend. (Yes, you can edit this post, known bug/feature of private forums)

You'll find I do this often before chats, especially ones where I'm not exactly going to be awake.

Chat Info:

9 AM GMT
5 AM EDT

Room: #Merc
Password: sheep

Attending:

Merc:
UnOrthOdOx

Sarantium:
Aidun


Analysis of Aidun (gained from PBEM and demogames. Yes, I have a log of most folks I've played with/against...):

Very proud individual, especially when it comes to his professed skill in diplomacy. Self proclaimed "one of the great ones" with reguards to demogame diplomacy.

Tends to want to play peacemaker in demogames. Enjoys bargaining from a position of power, and gets annoyed when in a weakened position. Becomes rather unstable if he feels he is backed in a corner.

While not without skill, he is also overconfident in his own diplomatic abilities and this can be used against him. Easily angered if you bring into question his diplomatic skill.

English is a second language, but only rarely causes translation problems. Attempt to avoid slang none the less.

Civ III: Attempts to play early warmonger in PBEMs but is rather poor at it. Often attempts a 'rush' or 'squeeze' maneuver with regular troops as opposed to vets. After initial conquest likes to builderer too much, and neglects troop training and upgrades.

Agenda:

Q from Sarantium: Have we seen Horde Units? How is our relation with Horde?

A: Only scouts. Ask if they are willing to share where the horde is located. Perhaps ask about the possibility of trading screenshots (allowed by the rules) of explored territory, zoomed out, resources turned off, and cultural borders turned on.

Our relations with Team Horde are neutral, as they are with all teams.

Q from Sarantium: We were wondering if we can rent or purchase now and pay later in whatever way that seems acceptable later on, like techs or gold.

A: We have determined this would not be in our best interest at this time:

Sarantium was one of the more vocal teams against Mercs.

Letting another team gain control of units now for payment later invites those units to be used against us. Similarly allowing rental of units for payment later invites only problems when time for payment comes. Payment is due on delivery of rented units. Period. End of story.

It's not that we don't trust Sarantium. We just don't trust anyone, and feel this violates both the nature of the game and the Merc concept as a whole.

Perhaps we can also agree to some kind of a set price for the rent or purchase of units used for homeland security? We are interested in renting or purchasing archers and spearmen.

At present, we would trade such units for equal hammer cost units in return.

Can we determine specific traits for the units we want to rent or purchase?

I assume he means upgrades. And it will probably depend. We should discuss this internally.

We would like you to do us some exploring for us and send us the screenshots if you see interesting or remarkable things. If screenshot trading is not allowed, you can perhaps describe what you see. We would like to be able to give you some directions from time to time as where to explore. We have to negotiate a bit on how we pay for this as you guys would also benefit from this though the exploration done.

Again, screenshot for screenshot trade for now. I think this might be a decent deal, but shy away from 'give us this now, we pay you later' deals.

________________________________________


Rules:

Be polite
Allow whoever is talking to finish thier thought process.
DO NOT mention we have copper or spears.
DO NOT agree to anything, easiest way out is offer to bring it to team vote.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Please make any comments you want on anything up there.

[Kloreep]

Looks like a good agenda.

Possible subjects not covered being brought up:
-Us having copper (we shouldn't mention it, but what if they do? I do not think we should lie, but otherwise I'm not sure how to best handle this)
-More broadly, questions of what techs and resources in general we have. I'd say avoid this, even if we might get information in kind; I think we know more about them (founding Buddhism, for instance) than they can be sure of about us.
-Possibility of a border agreement (I'd say commit to nothing for now, particularly since the current majority seems to be for the aggressive city placement by their capitol which they would surely not agree to)

[UnOrthOdOx]

Session Start: Wed Jul 19 03:38:22 2006
Session Ident: #Merc
[03:38] * Logging #Merc to 'logs\#Merc.apolyton.log'
[03:38] [UnOrthOdOx] There is is.
[03:38] [UnOrthOdOx] Command is /log on
[03:39] [Aidun_making_brunch] works
[03:40] [Aidun_making_brunch] So did you make any skulls lately?
[03:40] [UnOrthOdOx] Constantly. I have half a dozen now.
[03:40] [UnOrthOdOx] I need to go after more plaster now, though.
[03:40] [Aidun_making_brunch] six, very nice
[03:41] [Aidun_making_brunch] perhaps you've seen in my Armory thread that i've bough some polystyrene
[03:41] [Aidun_making_brunch] Today I plan on getting the glue
[03:42] [UnOrthOdOx] That's similar to fiberglass, isn't it?
[03:42] [Aidun_making_brunch] Then maybe with some luck I can glue the sheets together before the short holiday next week
[03:42] [Aidun_making_brunch] might be.
[03:43] [UnOrthOdOx] Yeah, I think it's roughly the same stuff I was recommending.
[03:43] [Aidun_making_brunch] It is very similer to polyurethane, especially the kind of polystyrene I have
[03:44] [Aidun_making_brunch] My brother, who was too busy to help be before, also advised me this after when I told him of what you GodKing and you had told me.
[03:45] [UnOrthOdOx] Well, shall we get to business? I have a wee bit I need to prepare prior to work today, so only have about an hour.
[03:46] [Aidun_making_brunch] fine
[03:46] [Aidun_making_brunch] I have less time, the gym has been posponed, but it's soon nontheless
[03:47] [UnOrthOdOx] Ok. You were asking if we've seen horde units and inquiring on our relation with them.
[03:47] [Aidun_making_brunch] Yes, just wondering
[03:47] [UnOrthOdOx] The only units we've seen to date are scouts.
[03:48] [UnOrthOdOx] Our relations are the same as with all teams: Neutral.
[03:48] [UnOrthOdOx] I assume by your comments you guys have actually seen military units?
[03:48] [Aidun_making_brunch] Yes one and our intelligence tells they have several more
[03:49] [UnOrthOdOx] Can you say of what kind it was?
[03:49] [Aidun_making_brunch] Like with all conversations with the Merc team this is confidential, even after deal are made public ok?
[03:50] [UnOrthOdOx] Discussions are never disclosed. If a deal is made, and you want your name kept out, a small fee will be required.
[03:51] [Aidun_making_brunch] Good. I suppose I can tell it. It was an archer. Does that sound familiar to you?
[03:51] [UnOrthOdOx] familiar? Not really. It makes sense given the power graphs though.
[03:52] [Aidun_making_brunch] We know of every unit they have... E_T
[03:53] [Aidun_making_brunch] and Flamer mostly
[03:54] [UnOrthOdOx] yeah, once you fill in a few holes it's easy to make reasonable predictions on what everyone has.
[03:55] [Aidun_making_brunch] We are not yet sure on their intentions but they're pumping archers a wee bit fast
[03:56] [UnOrthOdOx] I see.
[03:57] [UnOrthOdOx] This goes back to the scouting issue in your email, but we would be interested in knowing where their border is.
[03:57] [UnOrthOdOx] We would like to scout it out, and would be willing to share some of that info with you.
[03:58] [UnOrthOdOx] Screenshots were deemed allowed.
[03:58] [UnOrthOdOx] I propose we each make a screenshot of our known area with resources turned off, culture turned on.
[03:59] [UnOrthOdOx] This gives us both a good idea of the lay of the land, but does not compromise any security people might be worried about.
[03:59] [Aidun_making_brunch] I can't yet agree to that, while I'm a minister, such a decision is outside my jurisdiction.
[04:00] [UnOrthOdOx] Right, I doubt we'll be agreeing to anything in this chat, just things to take back to the team.
[04:00] [Aidun_making_brunch] But I like the proposal though. There is but one point
[04:01] [Aidun_making_brunch] We don't want to see our map info shared with others
[04:02] [UnOrthOdOx] We can agree not to share any screenshots received in return for the same consideration with our screenshots.
[04:02] [Aidun_making_brunch] Especially not with the Horde on our doorstep
[04:02] [Aidun_making_brunch] That's acceptable
[04:03] [Aidun_making_brunch] when shall we start exchanging these screenshots?
[04:03] [UnOrthOdOx] Next turn?
[04:04] [Aidun_making_brunch] Possible, and afterwards? every x turns, or just upon request?
[04:05] [UnOrthOdOx] Probably an on request situation. No need to exchange when we haven't uncovered anything.
[04:06] [Aidun_making_brunch] That means every time we request a screenshot we can have one and the same for you?
[04:07] [UnOrthOdOx] I can't agree to that here. I'ld say lets approach each one seperately for now, but I would expect us to be fairly willing to trade often.
[04:07] * Aidun_making_brunch has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[04:08] * Aidun_making_brunch has joined #Merc
[04:08] [Aidun_making_brunch] did I miss something?
[04:09] [Aidun_making_brunch] My ISP is unreliable and my connection was down for a moment
[04:09] [UnOrthOdOx] I can't agree to that here, I'ld say let's approach each one seperatley for now, but I would expect us to be fairly willing to trade often.
[04:10] [Aidun_making_brunch] I'll just take it back and see what the others say of it. I think we're but close to a deal
[04:10] [UnOrthOdOx] agreed.
[04:11] [UnOrthOdOx] Alright, the last thing you had mentioned was unit renting/trading.
[04:11] [Aidun_making_brunch] I was just about to mention it
[04:12] [UnOrthOdOx] We have determined offering units now for payment some time in the future is simply not profitable for us.
[04:12] [Aidun_making_brunch] But neither is moving around units
[04:12] [UnOrthOdOx] Team Sarantium has many members who were most vocal against Team merc even playing.
[04:13] [UnOrthOdOx] Among the many 'problems' with Team Merc was the possibility of ourselves gifting units that were just turned around and used against Team Merc.
[04:13] [UnOrthOdOx] I can say, gifting of units this early is not going to happen without an equal hammer trade in units in return.
[04:14] [Aidun_making_brunch] That is because of your security?
[04:14] [UnOrthOdOx] Yes. It's not that we don't trust you. We just don't trust anyone.
[04:15] [UnOrthOdOx] Now renting units at this time has many problems.
[04:15] [UnOrthOdOx] Payment cannot be guaranteed most prominent among them.
[04:15] [Aidun_making_brunch] We might sign a pact not to attack you, onesided, as long as we can profit from that
[04:16] [UnOrthOdOx] Well, Aidun, some people would happily sign such a pact just to turn around and break it if it meant a free city or two.
[04:17] [UnOrthOdOx] You will find words only mean as much as the gold backing them to team Merc.
[04:17] [Aidun_making_brunch] True, but then we needthe troops to conquer one of your cities
[04:17] [UnOrthOdOx] Which is why we are not keen on being the ones to supply you with those needed troops.
[04:18] [UnOrthOdOx] Giving you control of units, gifting them, is not going to happen this early. Period.
[04:18] [UnOrthOdOx] Back to renting, Team Merc maintaining control:
[04:19] [UnOrthOdOx] If these were to be used in defense as you claim, there is some problems with this. Most notably, we cannot enter your territory without declaring war.
[04:19] [UnOrthOdOx] Of course there is also the matter of we would not be paid for our services for some time.
[04:19] [Aidun_making_brunch] Yes
[04:19] [UnOrthOdOx] It is Merc Policy payment is due on delivery.
[04:20] [UnOrthOdOx] That said, Team Merc believes more customers are always better, and we have no desire to see anyone removed prior to payment being possible.
[04:21] [Aidun_making_brunch] So meaning we can't pay now means no renting?
[04:21] [UnOrthOdOx] At this point, no renting. Things may change. But right now, we have to consider ourselves as likely a target as you.
[04:22] [UnOrthOdOx] Our security has to be #1 priority.
[04:22] [Aidun_making_brunch] Very well. It is unfortunate we cannot trust each other but if it has to be so, so be it
[04:24] [UnOrthOdOx] As I say, things may change, and quick, if we determine our position to be one where we can risk sending help. At present, it profits us nothing and is a huge risk to our security.
[04:25] [Aidun_making_brunch] What is quick?
[04:26] [UnOrthOdOx] Could change next turn for all I know. Right now, the team is not secure in our position enough to send units anywhere but our own defense.
[04:27] [UnOrthOdOx] We have to consider our own defense #1.
[04:27] [Aidun_making_brunch] Would you mind to let me or my replacement know when you guys want to rent units?
[04:29] [UnOrthOdOx] We will keep you informed, yes. But you should do likewise with this Horde business.
[04:29] [Aidun_making_brunch] What would you like to know of the Horde business?
[04:30] [UnOrthOdOx] If they attack or something. It might influence our thought process. Like I said, we are not keen on seeing a customer removed from the game prior to them being able to hire us.
[04:32] [Aidun_making_brunch] There are neither roads nor railroads. If it comes to an early clash, I doubt you guys can mean anything for us from that moment on except perhaps for trade.
[04:33] [Aidun_making_brunch] techtrade
[04:34] [UnOrthOdOx] You seem to be expecting to go down quickly if attacked...
[04:36] [Aidun_making_brunch] We don't expect to be attacked, we hope not to be attacked.
[04:37] [Aidun_making_brunch] Consider that the Builders of Sarantium are urging to forget about building and units are all that matters.
[04:38] [Aidun_making_brunch] Intelligence tells us much, as I said. Rush could tell you that too.
[04:40] [Aidun_making_brunch] Consider also that we prefer not to hire the Mercs early on.
[04:40] [Aidun_making_brunch] I'm not here just for orientation
[04:43] [UnOrthOdOx] So you're on the receiving end of an archer rush right now.
[04:43] [UnOrthOdOx] ?
[04:45] [Aidun_making_brunch] We can't be sure of that yet, but the indications are certainly there. I'm not sure how much I can tell you.
[04:47] [Aidun_making_brunch] The situation is not dire yet, but considering that both their units need considarable time to reach us, it might very well me troublesome very soon. We have 4 units of them around our capital right now.
[04:48] [UnOrthOdOx] And your defense? can you say?
[04:48] [Aidun_making_brunch] We are buyilding it up, but they have archers we don't.
[04:49] [Aidun_making_brunch] We're sacrificing population growth for production.
[04:49] [UnOrthOdOx] Well, I'll see what the team says with this information. Keep in mind, anything of ours will also take considerable time to get there.
[04:50] [Aidun_making_brunch] I know, that's why I'm contacting you now.
[04:50] [Aidun_making_brunch] I'll have to get an agreement on all of this also.
[04:50] [UnOrthOdOx] I can assume you're researching archery now?
[04:51] [Aidun_making_brunch] Such as the screenshot exchange
[04:52] [Aidun_making_brunch] There's debate about that and I think it is turning towards archery, but at this moment we can choose for any military tech. Some prefer bronzeworking, but many argue the situation doesn't allow such a gamble
[04:56] [Aidun_making_brunch] I mean we don't have to go for archery, Bronzeworking is an option, but risky too.
[04:56] [UnOrthOdOx] It does pay off if it works. But you're pretty much screwed if you lack copper.
[04:56] [Aidun_making_brunch] yup
[04:57] [Aidun_making_brunch] So let both teams consider what has been said here. I really hope after telling you much we can expect something in return.
[04:59] [UnOrthOdOx] I'll see what I can convince the team of. There's a few things we may be able to do for you sooner rather than later.
[04:59] [Aidun_making_brunch] With regard to Sarantium and the negative stance towards the Mercs. The situation prior to the game is not the same as the one in game and MZO people make up a good deal of Sarantium as you know. Also the Poly people are now more familiar with the concept through what we have told them
[05:00] [Aidun_making_brunch] I think most negative comments were the fear for entering the cold water
[05:00] [UnOrthOdOx] Do you need the log here?
[05:01] [UnOrthOdOx] I'll email it to you if you need.
[05:01] [UnOrthOdOx] Where you disconnected in the middle.
[05:01] [Aidun_making_brunch] I have it too. If I don't have it somehow, I'll PM you
[05:01] [Aidun_making_brunch] I have both parts. mIRC continues
[05:01] [Aidun_making_brunch] I think
[05:01] [UnOrthOdOx] You still at lycos . nl ?
[05:02] [Aidun_making_brunch] sir.aidun@gmail.com
[05:02] [UnOrthOdOx] man my addy book goes back ages in some cases...
[05:03] [Aidun_making_brunch] Mine too. I still have the lycos account, but at some point spam bots got to know of it.
[05:03] [Aidun_making_brunch] so I don't use it anymore
[05:04] [UnOrthOdOx] Alright, I got to get going for work. I'll be in contact soon after the team has seen some things here.
[05:05] * #Merc is being logged
[05:05] [Aidun_making_brunch] Thanks, cya at MZO. Have a nice day

[UnOrthOdOx]

I'll post a small recap later, have to be getting to work now.

Essentially, they aren't happy about no rental of units, but I don't know what they expected...

4 Horde archers. 6 total if they are to be believed. And Sarantium only has warriors.


We COULD, POSSIBLY, move our scout into their borders to tell them yes or no on if they have copper. It requires a technical declaration of war, helps them out, lets us scout their capitol's terrain, so very good recon for us, and would assist them passively in this assumed war. The only down side is they'll know we have bronzeworking.

Considering the Horde will know we have the tech and resource next turn, I don't think that's a big deal.

[polarnomad]

Would we need to be explicit to other teams about the technicality of the suggested "war"?

EDIT: Having given it a little more thought I believe that, were such an arrangement possible, this pseudo-war would alleviate some of Sarantium's disappointment at our refusal to deliver on credit, and allow us to pass directly through their lands rather than having to go around. It would put us on Sarantium's good side, and perhaps make them more comfortable with the aggressive city placement policy we may be about to adopt.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by polarnomad
Would we need to be explicit to other teams about the technicality of the suggested "war"?

EDIT: Having given it a little more thought I believe that, were such an arrangement possible, this pseudo-war would alleviate some of Sarantium's disappointment at our refusal to deliver on credit, and allow us to pass directly through their lands rather than having to go around. It would put us on Sarantium's good side, and perhaps make them more comfortable with the aggressive city placement policy we may be about to adopt.

That is my thoughts on it exactly. We show we're willing to help, but maybe not capable (due to the fact we're about to drop a town on their backside, but they don't need to know that).

As for do we need to explicitly tell people we are just moving a unit through their territory? I don't think so. Perhaps the Horde. They are the only ones who would know we were at "war".

[polarnomad]

Another thought came to mind. If this pseudo-war comes to pass we will be in a better situation to judge whether or not an aggressive city placement near their capital is even required immediately.

[Togas]

The Copper Scout mission sounds good to me. Seems to me like a situation where they're taking all the risks and both of us are getting rewarded.

We need only extract some small 'payment' for this service. Something nominal. Perhaps information about the Horde, which they would gladly give.

We cannot be in the business of doing favors, or even appear to be doing favors, so some payment should be required.

--Togas

[OzzyKP]

Agreed, sounds like a good plan for the copper scout.

And as I figured, Sarantium will be a great client for us. They seem to be builders bordering a war monger, a perfect client. I think our next priority for our worker is to build a road SE to potentially connect our next city and speed delivery of units to Sarantium.

[rush]

When i read the Copper scout suggestion, my initial thots is whether we are running foul of the Demo Games rules. But after checking, we are ok. I am supportive.

The use of open border agreements, or the use of a declaration of war, for the purpose of teleporting units, is illegal. So, you may not cancel an open borders agreement, either via F4 or by declaring a false (or real!) war, for the primary purpose of using the game mechanics to move your units to a favorable position. To avoid running afoul of this rule, it is recommended to empty your units manually from lands with which you have an open borders agreement prior to cancelling that agreement or declaring war; this is not explicitly required, however, and if there is no gain to either team it is permitted. Please check with the admins if you're unsure of the situation.

The use of a fake war for the purpose of mutually gaining experienced units, or for the purpose of razing a city no longer desired by its owner. This means, you may not diplomatically invite another team to declare war on you for the above illicit purposes. Certainly you can trick a team into razing a city you don't want, or into attacking you with poor units to train your units, but it must not be agreed upon by both teams. Fake wars for other purposes ARE permitted, and are not distinguished from actual wars by game rules. If you have any questions about a potential war, please consult the admins. However, the general rule is that they are permitted except for two very specific circumstances.