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A C3CDG Recap: The Horde and the Planet Incident

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  • A C3CDG Recap: The Horde and the Planet Incident

    Since I seem to be one of the few here witness to the C3CDG and its fiery end, I figured I'd recount my version of those events. I don't know how much use you'll find in it, but if you're curious this is as best a summary as I can come up with. Warning: As you've obviously realized, long.

    I was on Team Babylon in the C3CDG, so I have a closer perspective on the story than some, although not necessarily better; I don't feel I will ever be certain of the truth in the matter. I should disclose that I do still bear a grudge, albeit not against the Horde team as a whole, merely James himself; I do my best not to let this incident cloud my perception of the other Horde members, though I again must admit that I am not always successful.

    I don't think it would hurt if I shared the basic story from my perspective. To sum up, rules against multi-team membership were clearly broken, but whether "cheating" occured depends on your definition and on whether you believe James' account of the whole story. I think I'll start by also discussing the Horde's conduct in the C3CDG, which sets up the background for what came after the DL was revealed, and some of which might also be helpful if the Horde appears to be pursuing the same path in this game. Wy view of the Horde's play and public face in the C3CDG is admittedly biased, and also not central to the Planet incident that gave the game its final death blow; skip the next few paragraphs if you simply wish to know about that game-ending incident.

    Anyway, reasons many in the C3CDG detested the Horde... first off, they had pursued ruthless diplomatic strategy, abandoning treaty partners as they saw fit - which was combined with constant follow-up claims that whatever alliance partner they had just wronged, that partner had wronged them first. Sometimes with a kernel of truth, often just BS; I'd say their most blatant backstab was when they abandoned Team Euphorica, whom they had allied with against Team Desolators, leaving the abandoned civ to be ravaged by the opposing Desolators. The Horde claimed that Euphorica had betrayed them by not putting all they had behind the war effort. (BTW, the war effort was being fought on the borderlands between Euphorica and the Desolators at the time, with the Horde homeland to the west away from the front. If the anti-Desolator line collapsed, as it did when the Horde pulled out and declared their neutrality, Euphorica was the one who stood to lose.) Their evidence for this betrayal by Euphorica included such sterling evidence as "We investigated City X and Euphorica was clearly not behind this war effort because it had some reserve defense forces Euphorica forgot to mention, and plus, look at that granary they built in it!" Similar claims about not actually being behind the alliance, plus trying to shortchange the Horde on tech, were made when the Horde severed friendly relations with Babylon; we were the third part of this anti-Desolator alliance. It's true we hadn't put many units into the war effort directly, but Babylon believed it had made this clear; perhaps we were wrong. The unit issue beside, we had never planned to shortchange the Horde on tech and on that count they were either paranoid, or looking for excuses. "Either paranoid or looking for excuses" pretty much sums up the two ways I see to describe Horde diplomacy. I myself went pretty much numb to the Horde's bad-cop-good-cop diplomatic routine, though their clearly deceptive allegations (or grand paranoias, again, pick your explanation) still bothered me. I think most in the DG eventually realized that the Horde was rarely on the level in diplomacy. They still managed to manipulate the other teams a surprising amount despite this, which is certainly to their credit; though in retrospect, Babylon members have to wonder if in our case it was because James, who was even assigned as our diplomatic contact with the Horde for a while, might have had an inside view on things - perhaps even an up-to-date one contrary to his claims. This is a somewhat unfortunate reason to dislike them. (Unfortunate if it's because of their diplomatic tactics, not James' disregard for Babylon and the C3CDG rules.) Completely understandable, and it certainly fueled distaste of my own at the time, but I do believe deception and backstabbing to be a legitimate way to play civ as long as you're willing to accept the consequences.

    So, the other main reason I see... the Horde's frequent belligerence in diplomacy can certainly be seen as a tactic, a bullying strategy, and I think at least partly was such. But many of their members were disagreeable in the C3CDG public forum as well. Most of the teams in the game did at some point engage in heated debate that turned to flamefests and sometimes had to be moderated. (I wouldn't be surprised if the C3CDG made the poly mod team consider, just for a moment, their fairly welcoming stance to any group that wants to throw together a DG on the site.) Nevertheless, while all teams may have been involved... I can't recall a flamefest that did not involve Horde members. (Excepting the one inside the Babylon forum, more on that later, and that was the Horde-linked DL.) I may be forgetting something, but Horde members were definitely involved in more than they were not; Horde members were at the center of the maelstrom. From my own biased perspective, I would describe a few of them as harsh, quick to judgement, and having difficulty with seeing other's points of view or the effect of their words on the other. This was the other reason I see for them getting, deservedly in this case IMO, pretty unpopular with the rest of the C3CDG crowd. If I was asked to name the worst treatment team Babylon received in the game - aside from the DL scandal, which was highly against the game's rules and spirit - I would point not to the Horde, but to Team Ankh Morpork, which talked us into sending a tech ahead of their payment, then tore up the deal and proceeded to invade us. I think that was the worst, most hurtful backstab I have yet to experience in a DG, yet I still disliked the Horde more than AM after that incident. Why? Ankh-Morpork plunged the knife in deep, but they took it back out cleanly again. They completely admitted they were not in the right as far as honor was concerned, admitted they had acted like bastards, and got on with out. They owned up to their breach of faith and did not try to place any blame on Babylon. It was clearly an in-game matter only, and while I may watch myself around the two AM members who made that call, I do not bear a grudge beyond the game. But the Horde... Team Desolator eventually resigned from the DG and retired their civ from the game, and while I cannot remember how explicit they were in their public statement, it was clear to me that the Horde was the reason they were no longer having fun with the game and wished simply to forget it.

    Anyway, on to the incident of rule-breaking/cheating that ended the C3CDG. James, who eventually joined the C3CDG Horde and is still on today's Horde team, first had a log-in on team Babylon, "Planet"; IIRC one he shared with a few friends, according to him. IIRC he had heard about the DG from Paddy and had decided to check up on it. When he later created his own log-in of James and joined the Horde he did not, to my knowledge, tell anyone he already had logged in as Planet (violating poly's prohibition of Double Logins), much less a DL on another team in the same DG. So, he had knowledge of what he had seen in Babylon before creating the James account and joining the Horde. He claims he did not return to the Babylon forum after joining the Horde (impossible to confirm since Planet did return to Apolyton and posted in the Babylon forum after James joined the Horde, but James claims his friends had co-created the account and had the log-in details as well). Regardless, his not telling anyone about the log-in or the knowledge he must have already gained is ****ed up behavior as it is. Whether his intentions were actually malicious or simply misguided, I cannot know; he claims he did not mean to gain advantage over Babylon, had simply wanted to check out the DG but then gotten serious about it and wanted to join Paddy and the Horde.

    Planet, the DL, got into Bablyon easily (we had a pretty open door, accepting pretty much anyone as a member who actually asked in addition to joining the Civgroup). Planet only popped in every now and then, making brief posts. He said he was a sailor who only had internet access in port (a good explanation for his sporadic appearances, probably happening only when James - or one of the other people using the log-in if that is true - happened to feel like it). Later on, some members of Babylon became suspicious of his increasingly erratic behavior - culminating when Planet posted venomous personal attacks against a Babylon member in our team forum at the same time (same day) as that member and James (as James) were having a heated argument in the public forum. The mods agreed to investigate Planet and found out that not only had James and Planet logged in from the same IP, but also Horde members Paddy the Scot and Rubychaser. They clearly all log in from the same location at least some of the time - Paddy's house, apparently. James claimed and Paddy and Ruby agreed that the other two users of Paddy's network had no knowledge of Planet, and lest I fall into absolute paranoia I tend to trust in this. But it was clear James himself had violated both Apolyton and C3CDG rules.

    The public forum obviously erupted after this. And there weren't many to defend the Horde after their previous conduct on the forums - especially when they dug their own grave with some of the worst yet. Ming banned Planet, and IIRC also banned James for a time; Paddy apparently talked to James and got the full story (as full as we will know, anyway) which he posted. Paddy and Rubychaser were under suspicion due to the collective IP address situation. Beta, Babylon's leader, felt very strongly that we had to be as gracious and forgiving as possible, lest we split the DG community down the middle (or more specifically, between the Horde and the rest). So... while we were somewhat unsure of how to resolve the situation to such satisfaction, we suggested Beta be given access to the Horde forum, to peek in only the areas he thought would be useful to proving that the Horde was not collectively in on it. Which was worthless in a pragmatic sense, as communication could have taken place by e-mail, or even live in the case of some Horde members, but it would at least be a sign of trust by the Horde. The Horde's reaction shocked me. Not only were they largely unapologetic about the incident, but they refused to grant such a thing and, while things hung at a standstill, asked when Babylon would stop sitting on the save and send it on. Apparently, because it was a violation by James, the rest of the Horde did not feel any significant responsibility, and expected the game to simply continue. I can somewhat understand their not wanting to pay for James' mistakes, but come on... when your member is discovered to have a DL planted in another team, you cannot just walk away from the situation. You particularly do not demand the victimized team just let it go and send the save on. I think the depth to which they had dug themselves did finally sink in, and some formal apologies and acceptances were issued between the Horde and Babylon, including the recognition that this was the end of the game once Babylon made it clear to the Horde that the DG simply could not continue after this. (It was already on its last legs IMO, with one team having retired and left a big hole on the world map, and the remaining teams besides Babylon and the Horde only having one to two active people each. In my view it would have ended before someone's victory anyway, much like the PTWDG2 puttered out; this incident just made its death immediate.) The Horde seems to have been uneasily accepted back, perhaps because the members of the C3CDG were only a part of poly DGers as a whole (particularly with so many newcomers thanks to Civ4 ). And that's where we stand today... don't be surprised if some teams, especially Sarantium which has several former Babylonians, are at least on the lookout for ways to trip up the Horde if not actively working towards their elimination.

  • #2
    It will be interesting to see if the Horde's diplomatic approach is consistent with their past actions. Did they maintain loyalties with any of the teams in C3CDG?

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    • #3
      I think there was a falling out between the Horde and DR (the team that eventually quit). IIRC they got a little bit cozy after the Horde switched sides and turned on Euphorica, and then parted ways again. Not being on either team, I don't know the specifics involved for sure, and I can't recall if there were any public accusations made in the matter.

      There was not really anyone they could be said to have "maintained" loyalty to, with the possible exception of Ankh-Morpork. AM was the first team that the Horde went to war with, early on in the game, but they signed some sort of peace treaty (I got the impression that AM gave the Horde tech for this peace) and thereafter were not in conflict. Eventually it became clear they had something at least approaching an alliance, as the Horde sent its troops away from the AM border to fight other wars, as did AM when they sent their troops to invade Babylon. IIRC we on Babylon never did figure out the exact extent of the treaty between them - how much it was one of equals, and how much AM had surrendered to the Horde in clauses and constrictions in exchange for keeping AM out of war and a viable competitor in the DG.

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