Second City Placement

[Togas]

I fully agree with Unortho and Ozzy on this. We have no choice but to be "aggressive" in our early city placement as we are limited by our policy of no conquest.

The only land we'll get to build on is the land that we settle on in the first couple thousand years.

Besides, San doesn't have the military ability to challange us and will more likely use it (when they get it) to deal with the Horde's close proximity.

Heck, if they're smart (let's try to talk them into being smart) they could buy some security from us, have us watch their back, send US at the Horde, and then walk in and claim Horde lands for their own.

Any "smart" team out there is going to find us a perfect ally. We don't backstab. We are easy to control. Give us gold and we'll do whatever you want us to.

--Togas

[polarnomad]

If we find that Sarantium is indeed wrapped up in an early conflict with the Horde, perhaps it would be better to settle Ozzy's city 3 location first for the production boost, and then scramble for city location 2 next to Sarantium's capital ASAP.

In the event of a conflict with the Horde the area around city location 2 provides Sarantium with little benefit as they will most likely need a site with high hammer yield.

EDIT: Having just re-reviewed Ozzy's pic of suggested city locations, I realize I may be causing some confusion... By city location 2 I mean what he entitled "1st" and by city location 3 what he entitled "2nd".

[UnOrthOdOx]

We also need to be carefull. Assuming the Horde is prepping a rush, we want to make sure we don't become a better target. That means we need to get some troops out, not just minimal defense on each city. Unless, of course, the Horde is on the far side of Sarantium.

[Kloreep]

From the chat I just had with UnO.

SirUlias (11:28:49 PM): Well, there's no way a horde archer got there from the far side.
Kloreep (11:28:51 PM): Ended turn
Kloreep (11:28:58 PM): Yeah
SirUlias (11:29:00 PM): :skull:
Kloreep (11:29:33 PM): Two horsies...
Kloreep (11:29:41 PM): One a little SW of sarantium
Kloreep (11:29:55 PM): The other south of us, sorta inbetween the corn/gold area and the Ozzy-2nd site area
SirUlias (11:31:24 PM): A city down by those horses and gems eventually?
Kloreep (11:31:52 PM): Yeah
Kloreep (11:32:03 PM): Third or fourth city depending on what we want to do, I'd say
SirUlias (11:32:04 PM): On that plains hill.
SirUlias (11:32:21 PM): Corn, horses, 2 gems in fat cross.
Kloreep (11:32:58 PM): And we're in under the 24 hour limit with 25 minutes to spare. :-)
Kloreep (11:33:07 PM): Now to post horsie pics
SirUlias (11:33:29 PM): I think I officially change my stance to settling up by our second copper, get another hammer city with a barracks and whatnot, secure that gem/pony site with City 3, and backfill after that.
Kloreep (11:34:13 PM): Settling by the copper doesn't block Sarantium... but it looks like we won't have to worry about aggression from them.
SirUlias (11:34:43 PM): Right, and they likely want to minimize their front, so will expand N and/or East if they do at all.
SirUlias (11:35:06 PM): We just need ot be sure not to become the target. The copper city is closer and more defensible.
Kloreep (11:35:19 PM): Not to mention a much better hammer resource than stone
Kloreep (11:35:24 PM): 1 more hammer, no new techs to research
Kloreep (11:35:47 PM): And there is even one placement that would get both in the cross
SirUlias (11:36:19 PM): Are we doing fishing next?
Kloreep (11:36:24 PM): Hasn't been decided
Kloreep (11:37:00 PM): I'm leery of building a fishing boat in AB, but it would need to be calculated out... could be a net benefit
SirUlias (11:37:47 PM): It's really down to fishing, masonry, or pottery isn't it?
Kloreep (11:38:13 PM): Pottery requires fishing or agriculture
Kloreep (11:38:26 PM): Masonry all depends on whether we'll be getting the stone anytime soon
Kloreep (11:38:32 PM): And it isn't urgent if the city site will also have the copper
SirUlias (11:38:37 PM): Curse my color blindness...
SirUlias (11:38:44 PM): Thought we had agri
Kloreep (11:38:46 PM): I think agriculture wouldn't be a poor choice
Kloreep (11:39:08 PM): The copper city can pretty easily net a grain resource
SirUlias (11:39:56 PM): We don't need the fish now, but they do add some nice commerce.
Kloreep (11:40:11 PM): They could add 2 food w/ a fishing boat
Kloreep (11:40:31 PM): But 30 shields is a bit of an investment, particularly when the food will all go to growth during its build
SirUlias (11:41:36 PM): Right, that's why I normally pop rush em. We're not ready for that yet. Agri gets my vote.
Kloreep (11:41:59 PM): Sounds good to me
Kloreep (11:42:15 PM): Unless we deviate from the settler rush plan, that'll have us getting it only about the time the settler finishes and heads out
SirUlias (11:42:45 PM): After our next settler, we should get on the boats though. (not current settler being built, the next one)
SirUlias (11:43:24 PM): Should be around size 4 in the capitol at that point, and wouldn't hurt to pop one.
SirUlias (11:44:01 PM): actually closer to size 5 with the pigs.
SirUlias (11:45:00 PM): So, Stone, Wheat, gold, and copper could all be in city site 2...
SirUlias (11:45:35 PM): Or Corn, fish, copper, and a port city.
Kloreep (11:47:28 PM): I think the first has more use in the long-short term
Kloreep (11:47:34 PM): Though it may not be ideal placement in the really long term
SirUlias (11:48:01 PM): Right, the coastal city allows more long term placement options.
SirUlias (11:48:16 PM): But the sheer fog removal of that tile 4 of the wheat...
SirUlias (11:48:41 PM): And it would be a hell of a city long term. It just jams up the middle a bit for backfilling.
Kloreep (11:49:11 PM): Cities only need 2 spaces apart
Kloreep (11:49:18 PM): There would technically be room for a city west on the coast
Kloreep (11:49:21 PM): Just a question of tiles to work
SirUlias (11:49:22 PM): Right, but you got to work tiles too.
Kloreep (11:49:40 PM): 4 of wheat has a ton of tiles, though
Kloreep (11:49:43 PM): It could give up some
Kloreep (11:49:54 PM): The coastal city would be hammer poor, mind you, but it wouldn't have to be at 1pt
SirUlias (11:50:34 PM): Give up tiles? Never, that's one for...uh, whatever makes the city have no unhappy.
Kloreep (11:50:35 PM): Only other disadvantage is no true seal to the northern approach to AB
Kloreep (11:50:48 PM): But we can tell an invasion force from an innocent scout, and we will have total sight with the border expansion
Kloreep (11:51:01 PM): Globe theatre?
Kloreep (11:51:07 PM): Eventually it would be pretty good, yeah
SirUlias (11:51:09 PM): Yeah, that thing.
SirUlias (11:51:39 PM): Wanted to say shakespeares there.
SirUlias (11:52:30 PM): Well, I got to get off to bed.
Kloreep (11:52:38 PM): Yeah, I should be going too
Kloreep (11:52:44 PM): I'll post this second part too if you don't object
Kloreep (11:52:55 PM): Food for thought for both the next turnthread and the city placement thread
SirUlias (11:53:02 PM): No, go ahead. We need to get a poll on city locales.

To sum up the argument for a close southern city, as I see it: the apparent Horde build-up carries two consequences. First that Sarantium will not be expanding so fast, and if it does will probably not expand west (where a Horde coming from the south can fork them) especially since the gold's area is not very hammer-rich. Thus it is no so important to settle aggressively in their direction as the first thing we do. Second, the Horde build-up may threaten us, which means we need troops, which means a hammer city as second site. A city near the copper could also be relatively close to AB, making its defense a bit easier, also a plus in any Horde-rampaging world.

[polarnomad]

To aid discussion I drew up a new city placement map:



I tend to agree with Kloreep about hitting city site red next. but then I'm so easily persuaded... It can use both copper and stone to pump out units in the short term. In the longer term copper can be switched to city site blue for naval production when needed. City site green should be next to the water if we are going for the current placement of red. Having ports on opposite sides of the peninsula is needed IMO. The site near Sarantium is not of utmost importance anymore also. City site pink should take precedence when we are able.

[UnOrthOdOx]

I had a different one in mind for pink, but that works.

I think Red, Pink, Green should be our order.

[Cptn Fancypants]

I concur: red, pink, green should be the order. We could talk about nudging the locations one tile this way or that.

[Kloreep]

Originally posted by Cptn Fancypants
I concur: red, pink, green should be the order. We could talk about nudging the locations one tile this way or that.

What he said. Though we will have plenty of time and opportunity to rethink all the coming cities after this one.

[rush]

Agree