Second City Placement

[OzzyKP]

I think the creative trait is put to waste if we aren't ambitious with our city placement.

[OzzyKP]

Now that we know where our neighbor is, perhaps we should do our best to block off some good territory. So I'll throw out this idea for a city placement.

Upside:
Gold & Fish
Coast Access
Fresh water
Maximizes use of cultural trait to block neighbor

Downside:
Could be too far away to protect well
Few hills

[OzzyKP]

Anticipating the concern about defense, it doesn't look like Sanitarium is in any mood or position for an early rush.

The power chart:

[Kloreep]

I agree we should push towards Sarantium, with them clearly an eastern squeeze on us and with no clear indication of proximity to anyone in the south.

[polarnomad]

I concur.

EDIT: Having read Kloreep's breakdown of the DL scandal, Sarantium may be feeling uncomfortably sandwiched in it's current placement. A team that respects no one, and a team that respects only profit...

I really think that we should lay on the pressure and send the settler as quickly as possible to Ozzy's suggestion #1. I would even go as far as to leave alpha base unprotected while we move the settler out of it's boundaries, escorted by the spearman, and build up the axeman afterwards. Too risky?

[polarnomad]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
Anticipating the concern about defense, it doesn't look like Sanitarium is in any mood or position for an early rush.

Could you elaborate a little on your analysis? I don't think I am understanding the full implications of the power graph at the moment.

[Kloreep]

On the topic of the power graph, I'm not sure what goes into it. It's strange that we have more power than Sarantium when all we have is a scout, and last we saw their warrior had healed up fine... if it's military-based they should still be higher than us on the scale.

I wonder if resources hooked up, especially military ones, are counted as a power increase? Could be we have more value in techs as well, I dunno...

Originally posted by polarnomad
I really think that we should lay on the pressure and send the settler as quickly as possible to Ozzy's suggestion #1.

Ozzy's 1st site is too risky, I think. For one thing, that site edges in on Sarantium's immediate ring around their capital; that's a highly aggressive move. For another, it's not really reinforcable from Alpha Base, only from Ozzy's Site #2 or another city in that inbetween area. Should push come to shove and Sarantium decide they're not going to let our settler stand, I don't think we could hold onto the city.

I'd rather go closer in to AB. Ozzy's site #2 might be the best compromise between tile production (it gets the wheat & stone after culture expansion) and blocking off Sarantium. It does leave us in a bind with that fish tile, though, and is not a port... and I still regard the stone tile area as quite sub-optimal compared to the second copper source.

Originally posted by polarnomad
I would even go as far as to leave alpha base unprotected while we move the settler out of it's boundaries, escorted by the spearman, and build up the axeman afterwards. Too risky?

The spear could protect Alpha Base up until it leaves with the settler, so I don't think this would actually be that risky. Particularly if we spent a turn or two on the Axe beforehand, then switched to the settler, leaving only a turn or two left on the axe and thus only a few turns without a garrison for AB.

[polarnomad]

So do we then anticipate that the mountain range to the SE will be the future border with Sarantium? Bear in mind that Sarantium will have to decide between limiting our space or limiting the Horde's, and thus will settle their first cities accordingly.

EDIT: If we are going to concede the area near the mouth of the river to the southeast to Sarantium then perhaps we should continue with the original plan, follow Cptn's suggestion, but also make Fishing a priority. With the current beaker output it would take 5 turns.

I've been thinking that having a production center with a port, in the bay, close to possible future conflict, might be wise.

[polarnomad]

Oases and fresh water!!

Ok, I was completely wrong about oases not supplying fresh water to surrounding tiles! They do! Sorry.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Kloreep
On the topic of the power graph, I'm not sure what goes into it. It's strange that we have more power than Sarantium when all we have is a scout, and last we saw their warrior had healed up fine... if it's military-based they should still be higher than us on the scale.

I wonder if resources hooked up, especially military ones, are counted as a power increase? Could be we have more value in techs as well, I dunno...

Yea that's true, for some reason I thought we already had a spearman and an axman, and I thought the graph was reflecting that. So.... nevermind my powergraph analysis, heh.

Though I suppose military tech, resources, and perhaps partially built troops count. If so then the first spike is probably us getting bronze working, and then the next spike is us hooking it up. If that's the case then we still have a definite edge over Sanitarium. Considering they went for early religion it is unlikely they have much if any military techs.

I think we have more than enough time to suitably garrison my 1st city site. Send the settler with our spear, leave AB open for a few turns while we build an ax. Then build a second ax to further garrison our border city. A spear & ax there should withstand anything we could expect from them this early. That should tide us over till we can get a third city built.

Especially if Sanitarium is sandwiched between us and the Horde, they are unlikely to pull too many units to rush us because it would inevitably leave the Horde border open. I'd imagine they'd see the Horde as more of a threat.

Furthermore, if they haven't been going for military techs and they are next to an aggressive Horde who has been going for military techs, then Sanitarium may have need of our services. So lets go for my 1st city site. It'll allow us to get troops to our neighbor for sale quicker, plus a good eastern port site.

[rush]

I don't agree with us planting a city at Sa's door step. It's too aggressive. Their reaction would likely be : 1) keep silent about it but see us as a Long term target to attack, and/or 2) send their settler to our coveted Gold/Copper (red, blue) location.

This is also in some way against our stated objective. We are not here to win the game. We are here to sell our services. Why do we want to make our clients unhappy so early in the game ? Why do we want to endanger ourselves by putting a city so far away from the core that could be attacked by Barbarians or the Hordes ?

[OzzyKP]

Ok, I started up a new SP game to analyze the power graph.

Things that count:
Techs
Military buildings (barracks)
Units

Things that don't count:
Connecting resources
Partially built units (duh, but answering it anyways, heh)

So I can tell a lot about what our opponents have done so far from the graph.

With some certainty I can saw the Horde has Archery & Animal Husbandry. Sartanium has neither. For Sartanium their two increases in power came from either building a warrior or inventing a low tech like hunting.

Neither of them have bronze working. So we are ahead with that. If we wanted to be really aggressive I think we could easily rush Sartanium with a spear & ax and take their city. Horde has at least one archer.

So I definitely think we'd be safe to settle aggressively.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by rush
I don't agree with us planting a city at Sa's door step. It's too aggressive. Their reaction would likely be : 1) keep silent about it but see us as a Long term target to attack, and/or 2) send their settler to our coveted Gold/Copper (red, blue) location.

This is also in some way against our stated objective. We are not here to win the game. We are here to sell our services. Why do we want to make our clients unhappy so early in the game ? Why do we want to endanger ourselves by putting a city so far away from the core that could be attacked by Barbarians or the Hordes ?

1) They might do that. But honestly, long term everyone is everyone else's target. Plus as has been stated, they will have more to worry about from the Horde. Assuming the Horde plays aggressively (is that a given?) then Sanitarium will have their hands full with them, and most likely will need us to supply mercs. Honestly I think we're in a perfect situation. No way would Sanitarium strike out at us, they'll be our best client.

2) That would be absolutely stupid for them to go that far away, behind our lines to settle a city. There is just no way they'd do that. Especially not before we get our 3rd or 4th city out.

In the long run I'm sure they will appreciate having one of our cities close as it will speed unit shipments to their border with the Horde.

[Kloreep]

Originally posted by rush
I don't agree with us planting a city at Sa's door step. It's too aggressive. Their reaction would likely be : 1) keep silent about it but see us as a Long term target to attack, and/or 2) send their settler to our coveted Gold/Copper (red, blue) location.

I agree these would be plausible scenarios. Except possibly the second depending on how close they are to the Horde. (Remember, scouts can cover some ground, so we really have no idea where the Horde is.) But we don't want to rely on chance pressuring Sarantium away from our own core sites.

Originally posted by rush
This is also in some way against our stated objective. We are not here to win the game. We are here to sell our services.

But to have services, we need a decent city layout. And since we will be handicapped by our principles against engaging in warfare on our own, we have to make sure to grab sufficient land early. (Which doesn't mean grabbing it out from the mouth of our neighbor in this instance though...)

Originally posted by rush
Why do we want to make our clients unhappy so early in the game ? Why do we want to endanger ourselves by putting a city so far away from the core that could be attacked by Barbarians or the Hordes ?

Agreed on all counts here.

Originally posted by OzzyKP
Ok, I started up a new SP game to analyze the power graph.

*snip*

Thanks for the analysis.

Originally posted by OzzyKP
If we wanted to be really aggressive I think we could easily rush Sartanium with a spear & ax and take their city.

But again, let's not attack someone without pay.

Originally posted by OzzyKP
1) They might do that. But honestly, long term everyone is everyone else's target. Plus as has been stated, they will have more to worry about from the Horde. Assuming the Horde plays aggressively (is that a given?) then Sanitarium will have their hands full with them, and most likely will need us to supply mercs. Honestly I think we're in a perfect situation. No way would Sanitarium strike out at us, they'll be our best client.

I wouldn't take it as a given that the Horde will be aggressive. They may wish to try things differently; they may feel it is necessary to do things differently in Civ4, which I personally do think helped out builders; they may wish to avoid the anti-Horde sentiment that their diplomacy style from last game caused. Then again, they did go with an Aggressive civ, and since they're not mercs they really only have one way to take advantage of that...

Even if the Horde is aggressive, though, we still have no idea where they are. We are assuming they are Sarantium's neighbor, but for all we know they might be south of the jungle, or somewhere else entirely. Sarantium may not even border the Horde at all.

Originally posted by OzzyKP
2) That would be absolutely stupid for them to go that far away, behind our lines to settle a city. There is just no way they'd do that. Especially not before we get our 3rd or 4th city out.

It's farther from their capitol than Ozzy-1st would be from Alpha Base, it's true. But I'm not sure it matters for much except maintenance and travel time once you get out of close, reinforcement-friendly range, and it would make them a great bargaining chip for a possible city-swap to regain the area around their capitol.

Originally posted by OzzyKP
In the long run I'm sure they will appreciate having one of our cities close as it will speed unit shipments to their border with the Horde.

I sure wouldn't appreciate it. It speeds delivery of troops to them, yes, but also delivery of troops against them. I don't think they will appreciate having their capitol under such constant threat of a contract against them.

Frankly, I think you may be assuming too much Sarantium policy to be bedrock anti-Horde. I feel pretty sure they will dislike them on balance, yes, but if we upset the balance by settling so aggressively close and trying to cut them off from all of their west, I wouldn't count on the Horde to save us from a brawl with Sarantium down the road, or at least some unpleasentness like the ***-for-tat city possibility Rush brought up.

[polarnomad]

I guess this decision boils down to how you/we view our stance as mercs. Some seem to want to maintain relatively peaceful route, not upset future clients, and strictly sell services.

I had envisioned that we would sell services but remain aggressive within the framework of a mercenary team, and even play to win somehow. We can't really shy away from conflict otherwise we'll just be the insignificant team in the corner of the map, quickly outpaced and of no use to anyone.

Perhaps a successful early conflict with Sarantium could promote our services to other teams, and give us more options to expand later by pushing Sarantium's buttons.

Do we have to be honest merchants or can we be a little unpredictable and devious?

I do recognize that, were someone to plant a city right next to my capital, I would perceive the move as extremely aggressive and probably try to remove it post haste. Do we want to provoke Sarantium or not?

Being perceived as dangerous might be a very good marketing strategy.