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[PJayTycy]

OK, turn's in.

{7:35:16} |SafaN| : oh my, the turn has arived
{7:41:57} |SafaN| : they killed our pillagers
{7:43:16} |SafaN| : no losses for them with 50 and 68%
{7:44:09} |SafaN| : goddamn
{7:44:31} |SafaN| : i can still see 5 ellies, 5 longbowmen and some other defenders
{7:47:00} matt.christa :
{7:48:17} |SafaN| : this looks like a stalemate
{7:49:30} matt.christa : What do we have?
{7:51:13} |SafaN| : just that one stack with the explorer
{7:51:38} |SafaN| : not even close to what we need and the ellie resource out of reach
{7:51:52} |SafaN| : i would move our stack towards the resource
{7:52:03} matt.christa : I have been out for a while - what uits in the stack?
{7:52:06} |SafaN| : they have 5 elies 3 are damaged
{7:52:27} |SafaN| : no idea i closed it already, 5 chucks and some macemen i guess
{7:54:01} matt.christa : Not pretty
{7:55:03} PJayTycy : Well, it's kind of what I expected to see
{7:57:27} |SafaN| : uhu, these guys are not incompetent like bananas
{7:57:28} PJayTycy : our stack has 3 maces and 4 chucks
{7:58:38} PJayTycy : GS has : 5 longbowmen, 1 skirmisher, 2 catapults, 3 ellies, 1 axe
{8:01:25} PJayTycy : I think we should move on with our stack towards the ellies
{8:03:02} PJayTycy : We could move the explorer 1 step forward, like we did previous turn, to see how many units GS has put on the ivory resource
{8:06:25} |SafaN| : 2 ellies
{8:06:32} |SafaN| : look at the battle report
{8:07:03} |SafaN| : those are not back in the city, so they are in open land
{8:10:32} PJayTycy : yes, at least 2 ellies, but that should not be a problem for our stack
{8:10:54} PJayTycy : I'm worried about possibly *more* units there, in which case it's not worth moving our stack overthere
{8:11:33} PJayTycy : If we move our stack, they have 2 cats + 5 ellies + 1 axe to attack our stack
{8:12:22} PJayTycy : I think we should survive that
{8:12:42} PJayTycy : but if there are more units on the ivory-resource, I think we have little chance

Also, we should not forget our barb-axe between our core cities. From next turn on he could be "gone" in the fog for 5 or 6 turns and then suddenly re-appear right next to our road towards GS...






So, I think we should really move our explorer one tile ahead already, so we can have more confidence for moving our complete stack too.

[Mart]

This may be war of atrition

[Kataphraktoi]

Meh.

[ForesterSOF]

Keep the economy strong and pillage.

[Mart]

we need pikemen. We should avoid open terrain.

For now we maybe concentrate units on good defensive positions blocking their access to north. That for reinforcements to arrive.

Economy may have to sustain longer war.

building more ships may be needed, in case GS wants send their naval invasions. We should have patrols soon.

[Kataphraktoi]

Is anyone playing the turn? I can later today.

Im interested in seeing how much troops we can get built in 10-20 turns and if that could defeat what they build in the same time. Next time though we could just circumnavigate the city, cut roads and head on

The more ive been thinking about trying to pillage, the more i think it would just be asking to get those units killed. Keeping them on hard terrain seems like a good idea

[Impaler[WrG]]

I'd support PJ's aggressive stance, moving in moving past the city and trying to force battle with the Elephants which destroyed our detachment, their weakened and can't defend the Ivory effectively, we may also lure their LongBows out of the city ware they will fight as an unmodified 6 a huge disadvantage.

[PJayTycy]

I'm really surprised by how much this comes as unexpected to some...


In the previous thread, I posted this (ie: GS killing 2 of our units) as the most likely scenario. Now suddenly it's considered a catastrophe.

Because the situation now is just like expected, I also see no reason to change our course of action.

==> Yes, we need a new, bigger stack to attack GS.
==> Yes, it will take +/- 10 turns till we have one big enough at their doorsteps
==> Yes, randomly pillaging tiles is not really that usefull

==> But, we really really need to capture their ivory resource, because it will be serious handicap for their offensive power. I do believe our current stack is good enough for that task. So, move it in that direction.


Kat, it is indeed needed to make a solid plan for our next big attack wave (a 10/15-trun plan), but it should be no reason to hold this specific turn. Such plans can be made from any endturn.

On skype bt said yesterday he agreed on moving the units on to the ivory. The main reason I have not yet played the turn is because I don't want to move those units and then get comments pointing to the discussion in this thread and telling me the consensus was to do something else.

So, for the turn to be played as soon as possible, could atleast Mart and Kataphraktoi ust plain say if they agree with moving the attack stack (3 maces, 4 chucks) on the ivory or not. I think we should.

[Kataphraktoi]

Just to be clear, i dont have civ4/skype access until tonight, thats why i have ''held the turn''

There seems to be not much point in capturing that ivory if we cant hold it. if its on hard terrain i say take it, if not retreat they will take it anyway. For any specifics i really have to wait until tonight to look things over carefully

[Mart]

How long can we hold ivory? if we cut it they won't be able to build ellies for that time.

Forcing GS to use their units for attacking our stack, they will not accumulate their forces. So our later units will have easier task.
On the other hand, we should move using hills/forests in order not to be an easy kill. Let's build pikemen/spearmen in greater number.

PJayTycy, you are knowledgeable enough to make the decission, you are involved in our civ affairs enough. I don't think I have sufficient knowledge now.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Their are several weakened units presumably on on near the Ivory now, if they stay on that Ivory they have a 25% defense but can't heal much in the turn or two we would reach the area and we can take them out and fortify ourselves on the Ivory with a deep stack we can then build up the 25% fortification over the turns that GS is building up another force.

Also keep in mind that if we deny them Elephants then GS has no way to counter our Knights as they themselves have not researched Engineering and won't have Pikemen, only minimualy effective spearman. We would have free rain over their country side with a Knight/Mace combo

[Kataphraktoi]

6.6 ellie C1 on the ivory
full ellie C1 one south of ivory and a worker


The worker just finished a road south of ivory. I know blake has executed traps before in MP and i suddenly am realizing unless we go on tour they will be able to counterattack along that road. Our knight and other chuk\mace wont be there for quite a while. Hey that 25% def bonus wont kick in for awile and our maces arnt that superior to those ellies.

Sorry, i almost had the turn sent, and was just staring at the screenie of that new road, and my gut is suddenly saying trap. What now?

It seems crazy to me that they couldnt whip 3 more ellies minimum before we cut the ivory. Could 8 ellies kill that stack? We can see 5 now.

Just when you need em noone is on skype

[Kataphraktoi]

[8:07:52 PM] Kataphraktoi says: hey are you on
[8:08:18 PM] Kataphraktoi says: i made a post in 740 AD thread, i want to pull back after looking at situation
[8:10:14 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: I'm with PJ and BT on moving forward
[8:10:22 PM] Kataphraktoi says: i know
[8:10:43 PM] Kataphraktoi says: wanted second opinion atleast before overriding anything
[8:11:55 PM] Kataphraktoi says: i thought from the start our 3 mace, 4 chuks are too small to be sitting in the open for long but still could regret letting them have ivory very much. Just not convinced we could hold it
[8:12:33 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: so their are 2 elephants one damaged other other not
[8:12:46 PM] Kataphraktoi says: one is 6.6 other full. 1 in city is damaged
[8:13:03 PM] Kataphraktoi says: 5 ellie, 5 lbow, axe, catapult basicly
[8:13:16 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: ware do you get 5 elephants?
[8:13:21 PM] Kataphraktoi says: 3 in city
[8:13:32 PM] Kataphraktoi says: 2 near ivory
[8:13:57 PM] Kataphraktoi says: 2 of them are combat innefective for now
[8:13:57 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: their are 3 in the city now? when did that happen?
[8:14:11 PM] Kataphraktoi says: you tell me?
[8:14:20 PM] Kataphraktoi says: i havnt been following the turns to tight
[8:14:26 PM] Kataphraktoi says: thats whats there
[8:14:58 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: well thats news to me, we might want to go over this some more with the team
[8:15:06 PM] Kataphraktoi says: its in the thread
[8:15:24 PM] Kataphraktoi says: first post IIRC
[8:15:52 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: if we want we can move that explorer some more, I dont see much use for it in either the advancing or retreating senario
[8:16:17 PM] Kataphraktoi says: we had to move it one just to see the ivory
[8:16:30 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: if you feel theirs a trap it could reveal it
[8:16:32 PM] Kataphraktoi says: only 1 move left, if we withdraw its left in the open
[8:16:34 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: yes I know
[8:16:46 PM] Kataphraktoi says: im not sure they have the trap ready
[8:17:10 PM] Kataphraktoi says: if its so then we havnt gotten there
[8:17:23 PM] Kataphraktoi says: and ellies are expensive, they dont need the resource 100% of the time
[8:17:27 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: well even if we withdraw north they can hit us with everyting currently in the city
[8:17:39 PM] Kataphraktoi says: im not worried to much about that
[8:17:54 PM] Kataphraktoi says: after the 2 ellies and pult, not alot of offensive power
[8:17:56 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: moving SW they can attack with the 2 additonal elephants
[8:18:21 PM] Kataphraktoi says: or more, i dont see why they couldnt whip atleast 3 more before we get there and pillage it
[8:18:36 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: get to the capitol you mean?
[8:18:44 PM] Kataphraktoi says: the ivory
[8:18:48 PM] Kataphraktoi says: 2-3 turns
[8:19:07 PM] Kataphraktoi says: if they sacrifice pop\happy
[8:19:42 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: well making them bleed themselves white is a strategy as well
[8:19:59 PM] Kataphraktoi says: loss of that stack would kill our attack for awile
[8:20:43 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: yes it would but if their military and economy suffer ireperably we would still be in a good position to attrition them
[8:20:52 PM] Kataphraktoi says: but retreating gives them all the time in the world to rebuild
[8:21:02 PM] Kataphraktoi says: damn i just hate this situation frankly
[8:21:27 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: lets do some math on what their military assets likely ae
[8:21:28 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: are
[8:21:44 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: score analysis and the like
[8:22:01 PM] Kataphraktoi says: ill take a look at what numbers we can see
[8:22:53 PM] Kataphraktoi says: both our power graphs are spiking indicating we both are cranking troops ofcourse
[8:23:28 PM] Kataphraktoi says: cant see their soldier count, i assume its merc in second with massive power graph
[8:24:05 PM] Kataphraktoi says: really have no idea
[8:25:01 PM] Kataphraktoi says: but they have to plan on us killing the ivory. and will be counting on whipping a few units before it goes
[8:25:05 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: what kind of ETA do the follow up troops have
[8:25:09 PM] Kataphraktoi says: thats what i would do, and have seen done
[8:25:29 PM] Kataphraktoi says: 6 turns from now to the ivory
[8:25:36 PM] Kataphraktoi says: knight\pult\chuk\mace
[8:25:42 PM] Kataphraktoi says: more far behind that
[8:25:54 PM] Kataphraktoi says: iirc 2 knights, chuk, mace
[8:25:59 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: how many to reach ware the current stack is?
[8:26:26 PM] Kataphraktoi says: 3 units in 4 turns
[8:26:38 PM] Kataphraktoi says: would be quite safe then with more maces and knight
[8:26:54 PM] Kataphraktoi says: i assume
[8:27:24 PM] Kataphraktoi says: knight can shield suicide lbows and maces handle ellies i guess
[8:28:08 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: whats the numbers on the elephants in the city?
[8:28:43 PM] Kataphraktoi says: one is 5.1, combat 2, one with combat 1, one unpromoted
[8:29:07 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: the second 2 unharmend?
[8:29:19 PM] Kataphraktoi says: yes
[8:29:42 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: so 3 undamaged elephants 2 damaged ones
[8:29:44 PM] Kataphraktoi says: im thinking the C1 healthy ellie has 40%~ odds on our lead mace, IIRC
[8:30:00 PM] Kataphraktoi says: theywould lose alot attacking us if wwe retreat
[8:30:22 PM] Kataphraktoi says: i assume the unpromoted ellie was just made and can infact upgrade
[8:31:00 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: but also heal all their elephants to good health, we would need to bring in a army epquiped with a number of Pikemen
[8:31:15 PM] Kataphraktoi says: yes delaying things even longer
[8:31:31 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: to counter them so a wait of atleast 12 turns before offense could be resumed
[8:31:38 PM] Kataphraktoi says: im thinknig 20 turns minimum until we can get a proper force down there(!))
[8:32:08 PM] Kataphraktoi says: we COULD go with 12 turns but i always like attacking in strength...no pint now though
[8:32:35 PM] Kataphraktoi says: if we wait for more units, they just get more lbows
[8:32:45 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: humm really do want to get more data on their production capacity
[8:33:38 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: longbows are a terrible time to be on the offense, I usualy don't bother untill the next tech level
[8:33:47 PM] Kataphraktoi says: i know
[8:34:28 PM] Kataphraktoi says: once we get a stronger stack though, we can push past that city, cut its roads, and move on weaker targets
[8:35:00 PM] Kataphraktoi says: if i were them, id be building roads up the ying yang right now
[8:35:10 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: do you think they could start marching north on us?
[8:35:17 PM] Kataphraktoi says: no
[8:35:54 PM] Kataphraktoi says: we appaear to be superior in everything
[8:36:09 PM] Kataphraktoi says: just our army isnt all at the front
[8:36:13 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: not without lossing what ever they send, classic Mahn strategy our reinforcment flow merges to counter them
[8:36:31 PM] Kataphraktoi says: too much to hope for probably
[8:37:01 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: humm
[8:37:34 PM] Kataphraktoi says: you see what i mean,im not used to going on offensive with less troops than the opponent
[8:37:48 PM] Kataphraktoi says: i dont like the idea of going in there, really
[8:38:06 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: I can see your hesitation, this is our rubicon
[8:38:29 PM] Kataphraktoi says: if we lose that stack count on a huge attrition war
[8:38:45 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: if we back off its going to be a LONG war, probably into the next age with pikemen and Gun Powder units
[8:39:14 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: back out = long
[8:39:27 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: go in and lose stack = VERY long
[8:40:01 PM] Kataphraktoi says: i think there is to much fact to call a retreat now chickening out though
[8:40:02 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: go in and take Ivory = short
[8:40:38 PM] Kataphraktoi says: risk versus reward
[8:40:53 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: worst case senario
[8:41:23 PM] Kataphraktoi says: also i know blake has trapped people before in MP. blew up a whole army on a careless move. but i dont know how active he is
[8:42:04 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: stack is attacked sucessfully by 3 elies, all maces die with modest losses for them, then secondary elies attack, several cucks lost, long bows finish off weakened units
[8:42:56 PM] Kataphraktoi says: the one thing i dont get it what happens when we take the ivory. now they just crank lbows until the end of time and its still a atrition war
[8:43:00 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: I dont think he's active any more but GS is still no push over without him
[8:44:20 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: perhapse we try to leap frog them in tech and come in withe desicive Gun Powder units
[8:44:29 PM] Kataphraktoi says: you mean cavalry?
[8:44:41 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: Grenadiers will break through longbows
[8:44:56 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: Calvary too
[8:45:21 PM] Kataphraktoi says: 5 techs till cavs
[8:45:43 PM] Kataphraktoi says: 45ish turns according to the ingame science man
[8:45:45 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: Musketmen are up to the task but can be used to menace them such that they can expand or focus on economy
[8:45:55 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: arn't*
[8:46:06 PM] Kataphraktoi says: or wait
[8:46:06 PM] Kataphraktoi says: thats per tech
[8:46:09 PM] Kataphraktoi says: damn
[8:46:17 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: you got a mic?
[8:47:43 PM] Kataphraktoi says: broken
[8:48:10 PM] Kataphraktoi says: no wait, sorry, at 50% its looking like 45 turns for cavs
[8:48:35 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: tech rate should incresse ofcourse
[8:48:48 PM] Kataphraktoi says: im thinking of the 150 hammer cost of cavs
[8:49:53 PM] Kataphraktoi says: by 45 turns we could made a hundred units and overwhlem them
[8:51:38 PM] Kataphraktoi says: my final vote is to withdraw :/
[8:52:00 PM] Kataphraktoi says: if you say go in, we go in
[8:52:06 PM] Kataphraktoi says: since the team supports it
[8:52:34 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: well you have me leaning in your direction now but I'm still seaking a team concensus
[8:52:48 PM] Kataphraktoi says: me to but the clock ticks. wait for tomorow then?
[8:53:34 PM] Kenneth Ferland says: I'm thinking so
[8:53:40 PM] Kataphraktoi says: alright
[8:53:46 PM] Kataphraktoi says: ill post the chat and sign off

[binTravkin]

One point - ellies is the last li
Tne of GS - they are nowhere near Gunpowder or any other more advanced unit for that matter.
Best they can do is get pikes/maces.

And them trading unit for unit is quite fine for an attrition battle.

[PJayTycy]

about the road south of ivory : I don't think they just built it to counter-attack us, because they could do that anyway without that road. It's probably more a safeguard so they still have access to ivory if we cut the other road.

If we retreat the stack now, GS will continue building ellies and we need to prepare pikemen to come to the battle. It will take 15-20 turns before we have enough of those down there. Then we still have to kill their longbows.

If we can cut their ivory for a few turns, we can focus on killing their longbows immediately. But, I agree they will probably not lose all their ellies, and we won't be able to kill all their longbows in the next 5 turns. So, you are right to ask "what's the point?". I would not count on keeping the ivory for more than ~5 turns with that stack and capturing that city in the same time. We can keep their amount of defensive units down to the current level though, instead of letting them mass-produce longbows to make their city very very tough to attack.