Announcement

**binTravkin** · March 16, 2008, 09:00

Border (orange line is spears visibility range to north):

Power graph:

**Mart** · March 16, 2008, 14:39

looking at the midsave.

Was their spear placement announced? any answer about their new city?
i don't know all the details, but it looks a bit like they are buying time giving mixed info or just staying silent.

If military goes south for conflict, we still would need a unit in Nanjing. Caravel would need 2 pop to hurry and there is fog-of-war 3 turns away south. barbs could destroy this city if lucky.

**binTravkin** · March 17, 2008, 02:15

Yeah, next build there should be some unit, perhaps archer, but on their spear placement and stuff - nothing was announced and no diplo messages were received, so I guess they're just waiting when we jump at them.

While playing the endturn noticed a mistake I've made in Safanople - not switching the city to something else when it reaches 29/60 on its current build.

Will be a lesson for future and hope Safan is not angry

Moved 1 chuck out of Hunoi borders (out of spear visibility range) just in case they do something stupid with that spear, optimized Xian for hammers and switched Hong Kong to settler - we will need one to get horses (and knights).

In next two turns Tassagrad will produce mace and chuck, meanwhile Xin Guangzhou should rush that galley so we can load the troops into it and start moving.

Xian is now also free to make troops.

In 2 turns we will have to upgrade 2 units - axe=>mace and archer=>chuck.

We will also need to start research Feudalism full steam shortly (more details on this later when I find the plan I posted in skype).

Endturn attached.

Attached Files

chairman yang ad-0500_end.civ4savedgame (187.3 KB, 49 views)

**PJayTycy** · March 17, 2008, 03:43

yes, there's quite some info in the skype log... (but I can't access it from my pc at work)

**Mart** · March 17, 2008, 09:02

Nanjing may be busy with caravel for longer. I was thinking about some unit coming by the new road from west

**binTravkin** · March 17, 2008, 09:41

Nanjing will have a chop in 3 turns.

**PJayTycy** · March 17, 2008, 14:32

complete chatlog from yesterday :

[16/03/2008 7:13:18] binTravkin : anyone?
[16/03/2008 7:13:24] binTravkin : I edited PJays message a bit
[16/03/2008 11:21:14] Lacero : it sounded a bit weak to me, lets see what youve done..
[16/03/2008 11:22:25] Lacero : yes that sounds stronger. if we don't keep sounding more annoyed each time theyll twig we've already given up
[16/03/2008 11:45:03] binTravkin : so should we send then?
[16/03/2008 11:45:26] Lacero : I'll agree to it yeah
[16/03/2008 12:22:55] binTravkin : GS just sent their turn
[16/03/2008 12:23:01] binTravkin : so I wonder did they get it in timre
[16/03/2008 12:23:07] binTravkin : sent an hour ago
[16/03/2008 13:09:07] binTravkin : turn's in, opening
[16/03/2008 13:10:53] Lacero : killing off bananas and the voice really sped things up idnt it
[16/03/2008 13:12:32] binTravkin : they have placed their spearman more to the north
[16/03/2008 13:12:39] binTravkin : on a hill from where they can see our approach
[16/03/2008 13:12:59] Lacero : 3 turns warning then?
[16/03/2008 13:16:38] binTravkin : likely more
[16/03/2008 13:16:41] binTravkin : anyways
[16/03/2008 13:16:46] binTravkin : they have started researching
[16/03/2008 13:16:58] binTravkin : lost 45g this turn
[16/03/2008 13:17:04] binTravkin : and I canbet it is not feudalism
[16/03/2008 13:20:41] binTravkin : 4 turns warning
[16/03/2008 13:24:41] Lacero : So we have to kill him first. perhaps by then we can dress it up as a warning shot for messing us around with feudalism? They probably won't buy it but it's better than being obvious
[16/03/2008 13:24:55] Lacero : and if hes dead quick enough they won't see how many of us are attacking
[16/03/2008 13:27:59] binTravkin : yes well 4 turns before moving in we should do it
[16/03/2008 13:30:22] binTravkin : will upload screens now
[16/03/2008 13:31:36] binTravkin sent files "border.jpg", "power.jpg" to members of this chat
[16/03/2008 13:33:57] Lacero : its unlikely their city will expand borders until we attack isn't it? they'd need a religion and temple
[16/03/2008 13:34:15] binTravkin : no they need missionary
[16/03/2008 13:34:17] Lacero : the power graph is looking beautiful as ever
[16/03/2008 13:34:19] binTravkin : but we have 9 turns
[16/03/2008 13:35:34] Lacero : ok yeah, but getting religion into it won't help them for 9 turns
[16/03/2008 13:35:48] binTravkin : power graph is looking like big club
[16/03/2008 13:35:52] binTravkin : transfer or die
[16/03/2008 13:36:06] Lacero : transfer and die...
[16/03/2008 13:36:12] binTravkin : anyways, I think we should wait with buildup
[16/03/2008 13:36:15] binTravkin : for example
[16/03/2008 13:36:24] binTravkin : Tassa can build chuk this turn or mace next
[16/03/2008 13:36:27] binTravkin : so it should be mace
[16/03/2008 13:36:41] Lacero : no sense in over specialising
[16/03/2008 13:36:57] binTravkin : no I mean mace takes 2 turns
[16/03/2008 13:37:08] binTravkin : mace + catapult perhaps since it wont be able to produce mace + chuck in 3 turns
[16/03/2008 13:37:17] binTravkin : meanwhile Xin Guangzhou has started on galley
[16/03/2008 13:37:24] Lacero : oh ok, you just want to delay so the power graph is not so obvious
[16/03/2008 13:37:31] binTravkin : I think it should be whipped once both of those troops reach Xin Guangzhou
[16/03/2008 13:37:51] binTravkin : yeah, upgrade only before leaving borders and build the more expensive units
[16/03/2008 13:38:02] binTravkin : but it will be huge jump once we do
[16/03/2008 13:38:27] Lacero : if it's a huge jump in one turn is makes the maths harder for them. they can't figure out what we have by analysing the grtaph
[16/03/2008 13:39:27] Lacero : so we're having a mace and cat go south by boat?
[16/03/2008 13:39:37] binTravkin : I think so
[16/03/2008 13:41:51] binTravkin : boat will be late however
[16/03/2008 13:42:05] binTravkin : 9-10 turns from now it can arrive near the northern GS city
[16/03/2008 13:42:39] Lacero : good to have a reserve plan if they get too many walls / culture up to attac kdirectly
[16/03/2008 13:43:00] Lacero : and we need to do something after we take the first two cities. we can plan the second wave now

[16/03/2008 13:45:33] binTravkin : I think the first wave should be our chucks near Hun
[16/03/2008 13:45:40] binTravkin : but that depends on what they do next turn
[16/03/2008 13:45:51] binTravkin : if we see them pumping power then lets go
[16/03/2008 13:45:58] binTravkin : if not, we can mass
[16/03/2008 13:46:14] binTravkin : although Im firmly pro the sooner the better doctrine
[16/03/2008 13:46:27] binTravkin : there's little problem
[16/03/2008 13:46:37] binTravkin : the southern chuck is not a shock one, but medic
[16/03/2008 13:47:10] Lacero : barbs from hun might attack once we aren't surrounding it
[16/03/2008 13:47:20] binTravkin : hi pjay
[16/03/2008 13:47:28] binTravkin : some screens
[16/03/2008 13:48:42] binTravkin : Chance to win 0.94
[16/03/2008 13:48:46] binTravkin : for medic vs spear
[16/03/2008 13:48:50] binTravkin : so we should be cool
[16/03/2008 13:49:53] binTravkin : we will have scout near that spear next turn
[16/03/2008 13:50:02] binTravkin : turn later next to border
[16/03/2008 13:50:35] Lacero : is that in game chance or real chance?
[16/03/2008 13:52:03] PJayTycy : hi
[16/03/2008 13:52:51] binTravkin : its from warlords calc

[16/03/2008 13:53:04] binTravkin : but until now it has been pretty accurate so I tend to believe
[16/03/2008 13:53:20] binTravkin : 10.2 + 2fp vs 7 sounds also like we should win

[16/03/2008 13:53:29] Lacero : they added first strikes to it in warlords ? I didn't buy it yet

[16/03/2008 13:53:37] binTravkin : http://c4combat.narod.ru/c4c.htm
[16/03/2008 13:53:42] binTravkin : this calc

[16/03/2008 13:54:22] Lacero : I'm sure we'll win, I was thinking we might win on first strike alone an take 0 damage
[16/03/2008 13:57:43] binTravkin : cant get to log into my imageshack

[16/03/2008 13:58:13] binTravkin : ahh, finally

[16/03/2008 14:00:56] binTravkin : I posted midturn and screens
[16/03/2008 14:01:16] binTravkin : I propose to move ahead next turn if we don't recieve any word about feudalism and also kill spear
[16/03/2008 14:01:22] binTravkin : as a "warning"
[16/03/2008 14:01:41] binTravkin : the orange line in the border screen is spears visible range to north
[16/03/2008 14:02:10] PJayTycy : Can't he see more ?
[16/03/2008 14:02:34] binTravkin : no
[16/03/2008 14:02:35] PJayTycy : If he's on a hill, he should see the plain hill too
[16/03/2008 14:02:55] binTravkin : hill inbetween
[16/03/2008 14:03:07] binTravkin : you see our chuck in hunoi border
[16/03/2008 14:03:10] PJayTycy : but, I've been wrong many times in my assumptions about visibillity range...
[16/03/2008 14:03:20] binTravkin : by that logic it should see hill 2 tiles west too
[16/03/2008 14:03:23] binTravkin : but it doesnt
[16/03/2008 14:03:33] binTravkin : the one on the ruins
[16/03/2008 14:03:34] PJayTycy : yeah right
[16/03/2008 14:03:59] PJayTycy : I'll open the midturn
[16/03/2008 14:13:19] PJayTycy : We will have to decide before next turn if we will attack with 4 chucks or 4 chucks + mace
[16/03/2008 14:14:22] PJayTycy : if we attack with 4 chucks only, we have to kill GS' spear next turn. If we wait for the mace, we have to stop advancing the chucks around Hun (to stay out of visibillity range) and kill him in 2 turns. Ofcourse, if he keeps moving north, we'll have to kill him immediately anyway
[16/03/2008 14:14:44] PJayTycy : The barb city can be a good excuse for having some chucks down there

[16/03/2008 14:17:31] PJayTycy : bt, why didn't you whip the library in Xin last turn?
[16/03/2008 14:17:42] PJayTycy : do you want to whip the galley this turn ?
[16/03/2008 14:21:48] PJayTycy : I think we will see the other continent in about 4 turns
[16/03/2008 14:31:54] binTravkin : oh
[16/03/2008 14:32:21] binTravkin : bt, why didn't you whip the library in Xin last turn? -> I switched to galley
[16/03/2008 14:32:29] binTravkin : since we need it
[16/03/2008 14:32:58] binTravkin : yeah, our 2nd caravel will be ready soon too
[16/03/2008 14:33:15] binTravkin : next turn workers should start chopping wood for it
[16/03/2008 18:33:08] binTravkin : hi Safan
[16/03/2008 18:34:08] |SafaN| : hey guys
[16/03/2008 18:34:31] binTravkin : checked out the midturn?
[16/03/2008 18:34:45] |SafaN| : not yet
[16/03/2008 18:34:53] |SafaN| : very busy & tired
[16/03/2008 18:35:00] binTravkin : ok, do when you can
[16/03/2008 18:35:07] binTravkin : quite important turn methinks
[16/03/2008 18:35:14] binTravkin : further 5 turns will be too

[16/03/2008 18:38:49] |SafaN| : one thing i can already say: GS planned this torougly, they maxed everything and moved units to position already, or have planned to move it. They won't change action based on score or even when we attack: their units will be build and at the front anyways. We should do what is best for us, not counting in their "possible" reactions
[16/03/2008 18:42:34] binTravkin : ok
[16/03/2008 18:42:48] binTravkin : do you think they want to attack?
[16/03/2008 18:46:42] binTravkin : Im questioning the reasonability of this move
[16/03/2008 18:46:49] binTravkin : Their army is clearly weaker
[16/03/2008 18:47:05] binTravkin : they don't appear to be building up either
[16/03/2008 18:47:23] binTravkin : the only thing they can hope they hold us long enough to get gunpowder
[16/03/2008 18:47:35] binTravkin : which they wont
[16/03/2008 18:47:51] binTravkin : by that time they will be down to 3 cities
[16/03/2008 18:50:46] |SafaN| : attack is not their priority, i think they are planning on e defensive war, but clearly war by hitting the borders of our patience
[16/03/2008 18:51:46] binTravkin : ok
[16/03/2008 18:52:11] binTravkin : but their buildup will still likely correlate with our, don't you think?
[16/03/2008 18:53:13] |SafaN| : uhu, i'm very surprised they didn't research fud anyways, it would have kept us happy longer (even with that offensive placed city) and longbowman are not to bad on the defensive
[16/03/2008 18:54:11] binTravkin : yes, well, that is strange
[16/03/2008 18:54:17] binTravkin : they should be researching it
[16/03/2008 18:54:25] binTravkin : this whole thing is very strange
[16/03/2008 18:54:34] binTravkin : I certainly dont see much logic in it
[16/03/2008 18:54:42] |SafaN| : indeed
[16/03/2008 18:55:18] binTravkin : but we could make scenarios
[16/03/2008 18:55:47] binTravkin : one scenario that seems feasible to me is that they want to quickly get to Gunpowder without transferring us anything
[16/03/2008 18:56:07] binTravkin : and they want to us to attack and bleed ourselves down
[16/03/2008 18:56:32] binTravkin : but we wont bleed
[16/03/2008 18:56:38] binTravkin : I see no reason we should
[16/03/2008 18:56:49] binTravkin : massed chuks bleed anyone
[16/03/2008 18:56:55] |SafaN| : so they must have some deus ex machina
[16/03/2008 18:56:56] binTravkin : by collateral and fps
[16/03/2008 18:57:19] binTravkin : the only deus ex machina I can think of is massive GPs
[16/03/2008 18:57:39] binTravkin : did you check on chucks
[16/03/2008 18:57:40] binTravkin : ?
[16/03/2008 18:57:59] binTravkin : my idea was to move those 3 near hun + scout ahead and kill spear with the one near GS city
[16/03/2008 18:58:12] binTravkin : that way they will not know how many troops we have there
[16/03/2008 18:58:23] binTravkin : and what is going on
[16/03/2008 18:58:36] binTravkin : 4 chuks should be enough for 1st city
[16/03/2008 18:58:39] binTravkin : what do you think?
[16/03/2008 18:58:58] |SafaN| : so you want to declar war this turn?
[16/03/2008 18:58:59] binTravkin : they can't really kill them either while they are in forest
[16/03/2008 18:59:01] binTravkin : next
[16/03/2008 18:59:29] binTravkin : I have an idea
[16/03/2008 18:59:37] binTravkin : next turn we should kill that spear and make ultimatum
[16/03/2008 18:59:54] binTravkin : and the reason why we killed it should be that it's wandering in our territory
[16/03/2008 19:00:08] binTravkin : and provide map where line is drawn just north of the fat cross of GS city
[16/03/2008 19:00:54] |SafaN| : what if they accept the ultimatum?
[16/03/2008 19:01:39] binTravkin : ignore :P
[16/03/2008 19:01:44] |SafaN| : no
[16/03/2008 19:01:46] binTravkin : that's just a way to buy time
[16/03/2008 19:01:56] |SafaN| : make an ultimatum they have to deny
[16/03/2008 19:02:02] binTravkin : ultimatum will be to transfer feudalism
[16/03/2008 19:02:07] binTravkin : which they wont be able to
[16/03/2008 19:02:13] binTravkin : and all they cash
[16/03/2008 19:02:21] binTravkin : no, just all cash

[16/03/2008 19:02:24] |SafaN| : like giving up that city, and keeping units down under a line BELOW that city
[16/03/2008 19:02:46] binTravkin : no, that would be too harsh
[16/03/2008 19:02:51] binTravkin : no use in such ultimatum
[16/03/2008 19:02:58] binTravkin : I would say ask for gold

[16/03/2008 19:03:11] binTravkin : they wont be able to research then
[16/03/2008 19:03:28] |SafaN| : but they still have that city, and we can't place 4 coastal cities
[16/03/2008 19:03:41] binTravkin : eh wekk whatever
[16/03/2008 19:04:31] binTravkin : I would like some dipomacy there to sleep them
[16/03/2008 19:04:38] binTravkin : but it isn't likely to work
[16/03/2008 19:05:43] binTravkin : don't you think that if we suddenly seem very big on power they will give in?
[16/03/2008 19:05:44] |SafaN| : i like the idea of an ultimatum, but we don't have to decide what it will be until next turn, right?
[16/03/2008 19:06:28] |SafaN| : i think they will, if the ultimatum is reasonable
[16/03/2008 19:06:40] binTravkin : like?
[16/03/2008 19:06:44] binTravkin : feudalism + gold + city?
[16/03/2008 19:06:58] binTravkin : feudalism + gold would be ok
[16/03/2008 19:07:08] binTravkin : gold making up for loss if time
[16/03/2008 19:07:15] |SafaN| : feudalism is rightfully ours anyways
[16/03/2008 19:07:24] |SafaN| : we don't have to ask for it
[16/03/2008 19:07:29] binTravkin : yeah, gold making up for loss
[16/03/2008 19:07:41] binTravkin : no, we have to ask to transfer it in shortest possible tie
[16/03/2008 19:07:53] binTravkin : they should be able to research it in 5 turns from ground up
[16/03/2008 19:08:22] binTravkin : but that would be giving them time to prepare
[16/03/2008 19:08:43] binTravkin : although by that time we will have 3 maces and 5 chucks in the area
[16/03/2008 19:08:46] binTravkin : or even more
[16/03/2008 19:57:25] binTravkin : we need to hook up those horses near crab
[16/03/2008 19:57:38] binTravkin : and for that purpose we should rush a settler in Hong Kong
[16/03/2008 20:07:33] binTravkin : too bad I didn't think of it earlier
[16/03/2008 20:07:49] binTravkin : now we will have to wait ~5 turns before we can build knights
[16/03/2008 20:08:00] binTravkin : 5 turns after we have Guilds that is
[16/03/2008 20:08:46] binTravkin : if we had started on settler earlier, we'd have knights sooner than GS would expect

**binTravkin** · March 17, 2008, 16:03

I was actually looking for this

400
0: (this turn): stock + 90 = 490
1: (next): stock + 90 = 580
2: stock + 90 = 670
3: research - 75 = 595 - 2x upgrade = 345
4: research - 75 = 525
5: research - 75 = 450 (Feudalism finished)
6: research - 75 = 375 (Guilds finished)
7: research - 75 = 300 - 2x upgrade = 50
8: stockpile + 100 = 150
9: research
10: research (Banking finished)

Which is actually wrong since I haven't subtracted the upgrade cost at one point.

500 AD: 594
(525 AD) 1: stock + 96 = 690
2: stock + 90 = 780 - 2x upgrade = 530
3: stock + 90 = 620
4: stock + 90 = 710
5: research - 75 = 635
6: research - 75 = 560 - 2x upgrade = 310
7: research - 75 = 235 (Feudalism finished)
8: research - 75 = 160
9: research - 75 = 85 (Guilds finished) <- we should have horses here
10: stock + 90 = 175
11: stock + 90 = 265
12: research - 75 = 190
13: research - 75 = 115
14: research - 75 = 40 (Banking finished)

So for the diplomacy - GS has 4 turns to transfer Feudalism or die.
For anyone hoping that our economy will improve during next 15 turns the answer is no as long as we pump units (that is, it will grow but upkeep will keep it at current level).
We could although get Banking sooner if we get good cash from razing and pillaging during those 15 turns.

**Maniac** · March 17, 2008, 19:38

I'd say the ultimatum should be: "Give us all your gold now. We'll give it back after you've given us Feudalism."

**Impaler[WrG]** · March 17, 2008, 21:07

Blake says 3 turns to Transfer so it looks like their own deadline will pass before our own. Theirs a slim chance they might actually give it too us and if they don't we at least have good Causus Bellum.

**Maniac** · March 17, 2008, 21:47

casus belli

**binTravkin** · March 18, 2008, 01:53

Guys do you think we should back down from our plans to exterminate them?

I think we should still attack that spear next turn and then send the ultimatum, meanwhile just proceeding with our troops. By the time those 3 turns elapse we will have at least 2 chucks in their territory and 2 on border (might also be 4 chucks in borders).

I really don't like their arrogant moves lastly and would like to crush them now since we have superior military tech.

**PJayTycy** · March 18, 2008, 02:59

Just execute the plan as you wrote it a few posts up. Play nice while we are stockpiling and don't attack their spearman yet.

**binTravkin** · March 18, 2008, 03:06

Umm, but then they will see our incoming troops (if we continue moving our chucks south).

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