1000 Bc

[binTravkin]

News:
- Banana traded us PH
- GS traded us Poly + Masonry
- Axe built at Tassagrad, switched to worker

Opportunities - as per acquiral of PH, we can build Oracle at Tassagrad in mere 8 turns (and I think it's actually 7 - we should be able to rush a turn or two).

Other team opportunities at this:
GS - no PH
Banana - weak industry
Sarantium - unlikely as just finished SH
Horde - unlikely - they are going to war and with Sarantium building wonders I suspect they are at Mercs
Mercs - unlikely, see previous
Vox - impossible


It's only a question of whether we are willing to take this risk or not.
I think we have a good chance here, but we shouldn't overstretch grabbing wonders (tho a free tech, which could be Machinery, Monarchy, CoL and other goodies.

[binTravkin]

Midturn save attached.
NOTE: whomever hits endturn - remember to change research before you do!

[-SafaN-]

i think its worth the risk, even if it doesn't work out, we still have a pile of cash to fund the research toward machinere

[binTravkin]

Right, that's a benefit too, besides, we're going to have quite a lot of cash for those hammers (I guess some 80+).

So, how do we rearrange our builds?

Here's the situation:

Beijing builds settler, to be rushed next turn (and overflow into Colossus - but this could as well go into Oracle!).

Tassagrad is free for now and worker was scheduled.

Xi'an has 2 turns to finish forge and then it's too free (I think Barracks or Axe were planned, but it could aswell build that third worker as it aint growing much past 3).


So, we could actually build the Oracle in any of the three cities, but it seems that Beijing can only contribute the overflow, but little (<10 mins) after that, so I think it's out.

Xi'an is waiting for iron mine to be ready next turn and forge the turn after, which will make it a 1(base) + 3(cows) + 2(forest) + 6(mine) = 12 * 1.75 = 21hammer monster, while Tassagrad is currently having 19.
Then the workers coming down south from finished mine could chop a forest or two and the oracle build would then turn out as:

turn	hammers		remark
---------------------------------------------
0	0/150		forge
1	0/150		mine done
2	0/150		forge done, road done
3	21/150		workers -> forests
4	42/150
5	63/150
6	84/150		+70 (chop)
7	175/150		oracle done
---------------------------------------------

which is one turn sooner than in Tassagrad.

If we acquire Maths by the end of the chop, we might only need one chop to do it.


What do you think?

EDIT: The Oracle build would then finish on the same turn as GE is born

[PJayTycy]

Which Great Person flavour points do we get from Oracle ? I thought you said GPP are "lost" if you do not concentrate them in one city.

[binTravkin]

Well, they surely are, but Im sceptical about managing the Oracle in Beijing.
Im more thinking about the one-time tech bonus, which we could use on machinery and start war preparations in short order..

Oracle generates prophet points (2).

[binTravkin]

Actually, here's an idea

Beijing:

turn	hammers		remark
---------------------------------------------
0	0/150		switch to Oracle
1	7/150		unhapiness expires
2	21/150
3	35/150		workers -> forests
4	49/150
5	63/150
6	77(+70|90*)/150	**
---------------------------------------------

* - 70 without math, 90 with
** - we can whip 3 citizens between 72 and 89 completion

This means we have two possible ways to finish Oracle in Beijing in 6 turns:
- double chop with maths (or without maths but with one turn switching away from cottage to second mine)
- whip


Im for it, are you?

[binTravkin]

There's only one thing - if we build Oracle in 6 turns and GE is in 7 turns, we spoil the GPP pool.

That's why it could be better to build at Xi'an in 7 turns..

[binTravkin]

PJay, could you check in the game code, what happens first - GE is born, or wonder built.
If it's the former, we could still build Oracle at Beijing.

[PJayTycy]

uh, I'm at work now and won't really have time this evening.

I do agree however, the free tech from oracle might be worth the guess.

In my opinion:
Do not switch away from our settler-whip in Being. Either use the overflow for Collosus or for Oracle. You say "unhappiness expires", but without whipping we'll also grow at that turn, giving us our unhappiness back.

So, let's continue building the settler in Being for 1 turn, whip it next turn (if it has 30 hammers completed), put the overflow in Collosus, change to Oracle the turn after that. That's a 2 turn delay, but makes sure we really have something built. If we keep switching our production every time a new oportunity arrises, we'll never finish anything.

For Collosus our bonus is 100+50(industrious)+25(forge)+100(copper)=275%
For Oracle we get 175% (we lack marble).
BT, could you give an estimated for Oracle if we wait for marble hookup ?

[-SafaN-]

i like great engineers, so i don't want to contaminate the bejing gp pool any further, we need only one prophet anyways for the shrine

[binTravkin]

Do not switch away from our settler-whip in Being. Either use the overflow for Collosus or for Oracle. You say "unhappiness expires", but without whipping we'll also grow at that turn, giving us our unhappiness back.

Unhapiness expires next turn. If we work on Oracle, we can't whip, thus adding 7 hammers (mine * 1.75) to production.

So, let's continue building the settler in Being for 1 turn, whip it next turn (if it has 30 hammers completed), put the overflow in Collosus, change to Oracle the turn after that. That's a 2 turn delay, but makes sure we really have something built. If we keep switching our production every time a new oportunity arrises, we'll never finish anything.

That way we'd delay Oracle quite a lot, which is the last thing we can do while building such an early and cheap (yet valuable to us) wonder.
The default input for Oracle at Beijing is 7hammers/turn.
If we whip, then input hammers into Colossus, and only then start working on Oracle, we aint gonna get Oracle as even with chopping it'd take us some 8-10 turns to finish it (10-12 turns from now).

I think this is, in reality is question about possible return, priorities and build possibilities of others.
Some facts:

- we have no trouble whatsoever delaying Colossus - Im fairly sure we're the only ones having MC
- every turn of delay in building Oracle, strips of 5-10% chance of actually completing it, because it's so cheap a wonder and so valuable
- most others upon building Oracle are going to take one of the following: MC, CoL, Alphabet, two of which are our best advantages now
- we can finish Machinery in 6 turns, if we manage to be first at Oracle, and then dedicate our GE to Pyramids
- Oracle main bonus is instantaneous, Colossus only repays with time, we're going to get instant 1001b if we manage Oracle first

BT, could you give an estimated for Oracle if we wait for marble hookup ?

We'll complete it at: never
It's at least 20 turns from now to hookup marble, even if we use our current settler, this is not an option.


Basically we have following gains:
- Oracle: Machinery
- GE: Machinery or Pyramids
- Colossus: nothing for now

Clearly, GE is the most flexible, most robust (we're definitely gonna have it in 7 turns!) thing, therefore most valuable, and Colossus is the least.

Therefore we have following options (in descending order of value):
- Build Oracle in Xi'an in 7 turns to not spoil Beijing's pool
- Switch to Oracle @Beijing, finish in 7 turns, pray it doesn't spoil the pool
- Switch to Oracle @Beijing, finish in 6 turns, pray the spoiled pool doesn't produce Prophet
- Build Oracle @Tassagrad in 8 turns
- Switch to Oracle @Beijing, finish in 8 turns (delays Pyramids 1 turn)

The first two options might seem interchangeable, but the first is more valuable as although we lose those 2 potential GPP's @Beijing, we gain:
- no delay in Colossus production, which means, Beijing is gonna get 2 merchant points at the same time, which are more valuable, this also implies we actually build something, not switch around and risk losing the investment
- no spoiling Beijings GPP pool, not for this GE, nor further GP (we might need one Prophet at some point, but other than that we don't need any)
- early enough build - 7 turns

[PJayTycy]

So we'd take oracle mostly for the free tech and not for the GPP. In that case I agree we should build it in Xi'an and keep our current build queue in Being. Xi'an didn't really have anything queued up anyway. If we go this route, we don't really need to change production in any of our cities this turn. Only change research to Monotheism as you said. ~~edit mine, bT

What did you do with the scout down south? Moved it on the hill SE-E as in here ?



I'll look at score changes this evening, to try to find out what happened between Vox and GS. I'll maybe write up a diplomacy anouncement about the tech trades for Banana and GS too.

[binTravkin]

So we'd take oracle mostly for the free tech and not for the GPP.

Absolutely - the GPP is minor stuff compared to ability to choose a free tech.

Yes, scout moved upon hill.

I'll change to Monotheism and send on in ~9hours then.

EDIT: If anyone else wants to send it on now, you can do it, just remember about Monotheism!

[-SafaN-]

i changed to monotheism and am ready to send on

i agree we can do the oracle at xi'an