Commitee of Strategic Planning

[Kataphraktoi]

Anyway, just play on a small map with 18 opponents as a test I guess. Preferably with Blake's AI.

The deity HOFs i talk to consider that a way to make the game easier and use it for number rigging. Ive been recommended to use as many AI as possible to make the game easier-and i agree with this. A smaller map should just magnify the humans micromanagement bonus by reducing the number of factors. The less factors there are, generally, the more advantage the human has. Everything i know about cIV confirms this. Every time i bump the map size down, ussualy due to my crappy computer, the game gets a little easier.

Yes, i thought i fell for a troll post there Interestingly we seem to be coming from polar opposites

[binTravkin]

If a plan can't survive some basic questioning, it isn't much of a plan.

Yes, especially if those who ask questions ignore the answers.

I last looked two turns ago. I assume nothing dramatic has changed since them. Especially since we're talking long term here.

Did you read the part about how much stuff mercantilism will net us once instituted?
The part about how much extra gold (read extra cities) we can make by having +100% econ in a single major commerce city?
The part about noobish instinct to drive allocation higher (and the link) whatever good the other option might be?

Yes, it's all the same, answers and facts keep being provided and ignored.

Besides the wonder itself, there's also the cost of researching towards Engineering. I'd value that tech lower than Civil Service or even Banking.

I never claimed the opposite.
I was just comparing Engineering to Drama->Music->Theology route.

Might chuks plus spearmen not suffice? Or Macemen or musketmen if we go that route?

Did I say that we should definitely use pikemen?
I said that apart from other bonuses Engineering provided pikemen, to which you threw a poorly thought-out argument about units of same strength.

You mean this?

That's only 1 piece.

I'd like to protest again against your hostile tone btw. If you don't want discussion or think you're a much better player, you shouldn't play a DG. Want me to start saying "lol you didn't even know banks cost 200 hammers or frigate requires astronomy - you obviously haven't bothered to inform yourself before making some vague plan LOL"?

I obviously know more about the game (meaning C4MPDG) as I open the savegame each and every turn.
I made two mistakes - the frigate requirement one and the bank cost one.
Have you actually counted how much mistakes you made?
And then, how much of those mistakes could never been made if you just opened the savegame?
And then, how many useless arguments could never have been thrown if you just opened the savegame?

I want discussion, or I would never post this stuff here and just do it in the game (well, as long as I'm allowed).
I answered every one of your arguments.
I did it with data from the game or analysis on the situation.
I mistaked two facts. (Oh, boy!)
Now go compare it with statements like 'I haven't seen anything to contradict this yet', 'That doesn't convince me' , 'I disagree' (without elaborating on factual basis of disagreement), skipping relevant parts of text, not reading past the first sentence at least two times in a row; requesting data when providing almost none yourself, even when asked; dismissing arguments as non-arguments without really trying to understand them; not checking the savegame even after suggestion to do so, drawing experience from a completely different kind of a game and positioning it as valid in the context, etc.

Hostile tone is a protest against ignorance.

Oh right now I get it. Anyway, it all depends on what our tax rate will be (with which I obviously mean how high a percentage of our turns we'll be running 100% tax). You don't tell how you got to these figures, so I don't know if it's some wild estimate or a careful analysis.

Umm, I pointed out two times that there's no talking about Universal Suffrage and gold rushing as it's not beneficial to us and likely won't be for quite a time and that was analysis of in-game situation.

Which we should, at the very least on the non-coastal cities.

We have little non-coastal cities having the requirements for cottage spamming, but the newly captured Banana cities could be good candidates.
Nevertheless, cottages will not be a dominant source of our commerce until maybe late game, that should be kept in mind when talking about cottage improving techs or civics.

Thats a funny statement addressed to a guy that can beat deity. You seem to be in a constant hurry to start a dick measuring war.


I have information that could blow your mind, speaking of which keep an eye on the main AC forum, for my thread there in coming days-just waiting for confirmation from solver ATM. Someday you might come to realize that when i say something, there really is a good reason. After all i spend way to much time digging-you should know that.

Dick measuring is your problem, I don't go around telling I can beat this and that.
I also never told your statements are funny.

It is possible in cIV vanilla to pop Philosophy with a GS and it's actually an excellent move for a civ wanting to emphasize it's GPP. I think Sarantium is the most likely civ to be going for that. They might be having stone, since they made Stonehenge.

As long as you don't back up your words with that reason, instead going to call others funny and dismissing intelligence data earned by others by doing complex analysis, I don't have a problem ignoring them.
When that information you're talking about comes up, I will investigate and analyze it.

All I was asking for a discussion where people would actually:
- care to read the arguments
- think about them
- do research/analysis (heck, it would halve the length of this discussion and make it twice as meaningful, if people just cared to spend 5 minutes on checking the turn, rather than spitting what first comes in mind)
- provide thoughtful counter-arguments
- don't start name calling when their argument turns out poorly based

It is so much to ask from adult person?

[PJayTycy]

Originally posted by binTravkin
It is so much to ask from adult person?

I have come to realize it's harder for an adult than a teenager, due to the amount of time it requires to do a meaningfull analysis. Usually students have a lot more time than working adults (at least I had).
(I know you have work too, this was purely a remark to the text I quoted from you)


Anyway, I know it can be frustrating to read remarks when you think "How could he say that? Doesn't he know this or that ?". Perhaps he doesn't, maybe he does, but has an other view on the issue. However, I very much prefer to have to explain basic things again, over complete silence. If you continue to become angry because you think someone needs to spend more time to do a detailed analysis, you might achieve nothing but silence.

[Kataphraktoi]

I also never told your statements are funny

Im not the only one seeing your tone here.
You keep repeating yourself, that people need to check the sav. I have looked at the last few savs and maniac said he had also.

When that information you're talking about comes up, I will investigate and analyze it.

Go check intelligence up to now, it shows quite well they are trading tech.

If i thought it would be accepted, i would have already posted it. I already said they had traded techs.

- don't start name calling when their argument turns out poorly based

You mean this?

Also there's nothing funny about getting Philosophy asap for philosophical civs. Have you been playing any?

People living in glass houses shouldnt necessarily be throwing stones I never once degraded your playing abilities. Your saying i dont know jack about philosophical civs so i mention a inexact measurement of skill.


No one is questioning that banks will be profitable and are worth building. I feel that there is better investments however. Like that fleet of caravels i mentioned that you took to mean galleys demonstrating your selective reading here....macemen, knights, caravels, galleons, etc are all available. I would prefer to stay lean and mean. Anything that helps our military situation now or then is good. Now i like spamming cottages but thats to help support military. Banks support the army too but it will take alot of time to setup. There is a phrase firstust with the mostest. Right now the other civs are stuck in mud.

Your data is correct but its either irrelevant, true anyway, or is being compared to intangibles. Stop trying to convince maniac\kata and try to convince the rest of the team. Why not have a poll? We are hardly going to start a coup if the team chooses banking.

[binTravkin]

The question is rather about whether one wants to do analysis or don't.
As I said many things would become clear just by opening the turn, yet it is obvious some don't bother, instead spending much more time in thinking up useless and insulting stuff.
I reserve a right to be angry over such behavior, as frankly speaking it looks more like someone wanting to troll rather than do anything meaningful that benefits the team. There's plenty of room in OT for that.

I don't have problem with different views on the issue as long as they are based on something I can see and measure against the basement of my views.

I also tried to explain the same things several times, as seen by several long posts starting from page 12 in this thread. What's the use of explaining, when people don't bother to read?

[binTravkin]

Like that fleet of caravels i mentioned that you took to mean galleys demonstrating your selective reading here

No, I just remembered that caravels can't transport troops.

Your data is correct but its either irrelevant, true anyway, or is being compared to intangibles.

A good one
Of course, my data is the least relevant, especially when I point out to certain someone, that getting a +1 happiness for 1287b + 80h is not the best deal currently and that can be seen from a simple look at savegame.

[binTravkin]

If i thought it would be accepted, i would have already posted it. I already said they had traded techs.

You mean this?

Your saying i dont know jack about philosophical civs so i mention a inexact measurement of skill.

Umm, you didn't say this, did you?

These are funny statements, but i guess the intelligence services have their heads turned off Anyone that knew the history of all three groups know they arnt cooperating. Ahh, but kata, they are trading techs, are they not? They ARE trading something....oh yes, and mercs have allied with sarantium...its oh so obvious silly kata...

Right now the other civs are stuck in mud.

Talk about unbased statements.

[binTravkin]

You keep repeating yourself, that people need to check the sav. I have looked at the last few savs and maniac said he had also.

Where do stuff, like suggestions about Printing Press when we hardly have any cottages, getting happiness by Theology, when we can have much more by other, way cheaper means, claiming wrong tech costs and other incompatible with the save stuff comes from?

[Kataphraktoi]

Where do stuff, like suggestions about Printing Press when we hardly have any cottages

Since when have i advocated this?

Of course, my data is the least relevant, especially when I point out to certain someone, that getting a +1 happiness for 1287b + 80h is not the best deal currently and that can be seen from a simple look at savegame.

He was just comparing that wonder to your own suggestions about engineering. So if that plan was a terrible deal, thats only in comparison to your own terrible deal of getting engineering. I know you dont support engineering, so why knock maniac for touching on the subject?

No, I just remembered that caravels can't transport troops.

I never use the things And i reserve the right to be factually wrong, as i see you have.

We could still get galleons for an invasion fleet and apparantly in the same longrange timescale as the proposed banking route. Ofcourse losing the colossus is bad but when we are ready to attack it must be done whether we go banking first or not.

[Kataphraktoi]

Originally posted by binTravkin
The question is rather about whether one wants to do analysis or don't.
As I said many things would become clear just by opening the turn, yet it is obvious some don't bother, instead spending much more time in thinking up useless and insulting stuff.
I reserve a right to be angry over such behavior, as frankly speaking it looks more like someone wanting to troll rather than do anything meaningful that benefits the team. There's plenty of room in OT for that.

I don't have problem with different views on the issue as long as they are based on something I can see and measure against the basement of my views.

I also tried to explain the same things several times, as seen by several long posts starting from page 12 in this thread. What's the use of explaining, when people don't bother to read?

I have both read and comprehended everything you have said. You can prove banks are worth it on paper, but it still doesnt mean anything. Other investments like a religion or military are uncountable and cannot be compared like that and besides, these are not mutually exclusive. Lets build banks in our most major commerce centers, im all for that. But just not now

[binTravkin]

Since when have i advocated this?

I'm not saying you did.

He was just comparing that wonder to your own suggestions about engineering. So if that plan was a terrible deal, thats only in comparison to your own terrible deal of getting engineering. I know you dont support engineering, so why knock maniac for touching on the subject?

You know well, that started quite different and could be avoided at all, if, and I will keep repeating this, only the turn was checked.
I'm not even talking about a particular case of Theology versus something else. The very idea of having to pay 1287b to maybe get a religion, when I have one and am probably getting second, while also having plentiful happiness resources available, strikes me as flawed logic.
Perhaps Maniac thought it would only cost us 858b, but it too is not a good price not even talking you should first check then propose.

And i reserve the right to be factually wrong, as i see you have.

Agreed. As long as you don't say others are 'showing selective reading capabilities' on this fact.

We could still get galleons for an invasion fleet and apparantly in the same longrange timescale as the proposed banking route. Ofcourse losing the colossus is bad but when we are ready to attack it must be done whether we go banking first or not.

I'm all against attacking for attacking sake. Losing like up to 1/5 our economy doesn't sound like worth it.

Instead I propose to quickly boost up our empire to the maximum amount of land that is available (where banking could help us greatly with upkeeping it) and then kill GS with our production superiority, if not technological.
Having a continent for us alone sounds like a recipe for victory.

[binTravkin]

Other investments like a religion or military are uncountable and cannot be compared like that.

Religion, except for it's sight bonus can easily be accounted for.
Military is a function of commerce and production. Having poor performance in either of those factors means your military will suffer. We don't have any problems with production, but banking would help us with commerce.

Now, everyone, repeat after me "banking, banking, banking, banking..".

I guess we should draw up a list of available techs, their costs and benefits.

[Lacero]

I seem to remember some talk of a list of city sites too, we got half way through that and ended up arguing over something (the rice site maybe?) and never quite finished it once that was resolved.

We can't settle this friendly discussion () without knowing how many cities we're aiming for. The maximum we can have is determined by geography which we can't change, so I think we should start there. Unless this has already been settled and I missed it?

[Kataphraktoi]

I'm all against attacking for attacking sake. Losing like up to 1/5 our economy doesn't sound like worth it.
.

I dont mean researching astronomy right now.

(where banking could help us greatly with upkeeping it)

Im seeing this as slowing us down bigtime. The cost of researching the tech alone is enormous. Its a next era item, IMO.

Having a continent for us alone sounds like a recipe for victory.

Are you contradicting yourself or just listening to my ''they are not allied'' talk or something else entirely? If they are allied, a three or two way alliance that is, they will be able to utilize the same amount of land as we could and have much greater gain on it;for one, city maintenance. Killing GS would seem to be in line with thinking the others are unallied.

Religion, except for it's sight bonus can easily be accounted for.

The value of denying 2 or 3 religions to another team is hard to figure, especially when we cant even see them.

The reason i like a military strike is to crush sarantium's teching ability. This is the same thing as a raid on GS cottages but a little bigger. I used a suicide attack to this effect way back in vets9, despite forcing the others into a three way alliance things looked brighter than ever. University was forever out of the teching race, Morgan lost his big trade partner(univ atrocities in self defense ) and the cult, is well, cult. I wouldnt be surprised if they quietly let that game die.

[binTravkin]

I dont mean researching astronomy right now.

Well, I'd like to postpone it until we can't really do without it, like when we need Physics.

I seem to remember some talk of a list of city sites too, we got half way through that and ended up arguing over something (the rice site maybe?) and never quite finished it once that was resolved.

The dispute was over clam site. Rice site was accepted by most.

We can't settle this friendly discussion () without knowing how many cities we're aiming for. The maximum we can have is determined by geography which we can't change, so I think we should start there. Unless this has already been settled and I missed it?

We will have lots of cities if we settle the coast available to us plus the best inland spots. It'll be in twenties, so we need to think good about upkeep at least early on.
And I again advertise banking!

Im seeing this as slowing us down bigtime. The cost of researching the tech alone is enormous. Its a next era item, IMO.

The cost is ~2700b if GS does Feudalism for us (and they should by all means ), quite reasonable for the benefits.
I agree that some other techs need being researched before it, like Calendar (though I'd really like GS to research it , CS and the Optics route if we choose to do it).
Now, if we look at the tech tree, we see certain routes to more advanced tech (from top to bottom):

Philosophy route
Paper route
Guilds route

We're most advanced on the Guilds and Paper route, them also being the best for us by the provided benefits.
Paper route isn't really profitable after CS - we can't/don't need to advance past Paper just yet and Paper itself isn't worth much.
Philosophy route is only useful for us for the Philosophy itself as it opens Liberalism, whereas we could advance further down the Paper route.
Guilds route is currently the most advanced for us and though it looks expensive, it is not more expensive than other advanced tech routes.

Anyways, shooting for high tech would not slow us down, as there's little left to research on this level (assuming GS trades with us).

Are you contradicting yourself or just listening to my ''they are not allied'' talk or something else entirely? If they are allied, a three or two way alliance that is, they will be able to utilize the same amount of land as we could and have much greater gain on it;for one, city maintenance. Killing GS would seem to be in line with thinking the others are unallied.

If we have banks, we can support excellent tech rate and huge empire at the same time.
I'm just afraid that living on one continent with GS until endgame is like sitting on a powder keg.

The value of denying 2 or 3 religions to another team is hard to figure, especially when we cant even see them.

We can know the average value though and it is somewhere between those 2 religions being crucial as happiness sources and being totally forgotten and skipped by those teams.