Commitee of Strategic Planning

[Impaler[WrG]]

You dont settle GE this early in the game Wonders are waaay better. Latergame Techs are usualy better.

Great Light house would just be a strait build, with its modest cost 200 and our Wonder bonus its only going to take 14 turns at our present build rate in Beging (which will probably grow by then). The commerce in brings in will be quite worth it.

I think the Great Library would be a great idea but being sufficinetly high tech and requiring Marble it should wait untill we have that marble connected and have hit liturature, then it will be an easy grap.

[Senethro]

The Great Lighthouse won't earn us a great deal of extra money. It'll just suck the +3 trade routes out of our less commercey cities and give them a +1 instead. There are a finite number of good trade routes out there and building the G.Lighthouse won't get us that many of them. If we're doing a wonder build strategy it would be better spent on the G. Library. The techs associated with it are better as well. Not forgetting we need to build some defensive units as well.

Impaler, late game GPs don't give us techs. They give a limited number of beakers towards techs. The amount is so small as to be nearly worthless. GPs are much more valuable produced early and settled. Engis and the first Scientist are usually an exception to this.

[binTravkin]

The Great Lighthouse won't earn us a great deal of extra money. It'll just suck the +3 trade routes out of our less commercey cities and give them a +1 instead.

- it actually gives +2
- it doesn't need 'great' routes, any route that can generate 1+ gold fits
- there's a practically infinite number of routes as each city can be linked to each other with no need to 'link back'

Impaler, late game GPs don't give us techs. They give a limited number of beakers towards techs. The amount is so small as to be nearly worthless. GPs are much more valuable produced early and settled. Engis and the first Scientist are usually an exception to this.

GS gives 1500 beakers + 3*total pop
others give 1000 beakers + 2*total pop
Both are just enough to instaresearch a valuable tech.

For settling the best are scientists, and merchants, others do little benefit settled.

And I repeat what I once said and Impaler says - Lighthouse and Library are simply too far away to effectively rule out each other's build possibility.
We can start Lighthouse in 15 turns and finish at least 10 turns before we can start on Library, even if we b-lined for Literature after finishing Writing.

[Senethro]

I honestly think we'd do better to fill out our free unit support slots with Axe/swordsmen than build the G.Lighthouse.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by binTravkin
I think Maniac's got me convinced

That's unexpected I must say. May I ask if there's a specific point which made you change opinion?

Originally posted by binTravkin
- do we want Beijing to be our GP Farm (cant be both good cap and good GP farm due to nat wonder limit of 2)

IIRC capitals don't count to the national wonder limit of 2.

Btw, researching Machinery directly would take shorter than researching Currency plus Mathematics. But anyway, there are plenty of other good uses for great engineers (wonders, or Engineering, though that is less attractive) and great merchants (other great techs besides Machinery).

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
- Future Growth: new pop in Beiging working 4 commerce coast tiles

Ooh, hadn't considered that. +5 beakers per tile worked (due to library)!

[binTravkin]

IIRC capitals don't count to the national wonder limit of 2.

AFAIK no, but should check.

That's unexpected I must say. May I ask if there's a specific point which made you change opinion?

Especially since for us attacking the Bananas is a zero-sum operation on the short term: it would be equally expensive to just build some settlers ourselves instead of conquering Banana cities.

Made me rethink all the pros and cons.

[Mart]

Originally posted by Maniac
IIRC capitals don't count to the national wonder limit of 2.

In my Prince difficulty game as France I have in Paris already 2 nat wonders and it says I cannot have more.
Maybe there are other cases (special?)

[binTravkin]

Don't remember any special cases in game, this should be no exception.

[N35t0r]

Only in OCC have I been able to build more than 2 nat. wonders per city.

[binTravkin]

Yeah, in OCC it's possible but that's about it.

[binTravkin]

Did a little bean counting and this seems to be a good scenario for the next 20 turns in Beijing - gives us two massive overflows poured into Colossus and 4 turns extra time just in the case the maths weren't 100% precise.

22	Library		0(+7)/90	+5	5/28(5)4	8
21	Library		7(+5)/90	+5	10/28(4)4	7
20	Library		12(+5)/90	+5	15/28(3)4	6
19	Library		17(+5)/90	+5	20/28(2)4	5
18	Library		22(+5)/90	+5	25/28(1)4	4
17	Library		27(+5)/90	+3	12/30(6)5	3	Switch to Colossus
16	Colossus	11(+11)/250	+3	15/30(5)5	2
15	Colossus	22(+11)/250	+3	18/30(4)5	1	Switch back, whip
*whip	Library		116(+5)/90	+4	18/26(2)3	11
14	Colossus	22(+68)/250	+4	22/26(1)3	10
13	Colossus	90(+11)/250	+5	13/28(3)4	9
12	Colossus	101(+11)/250	+5	18/28(2)4	8
11	Colossus	112(+11)/250	+5	23/28(1)4	7
10	Colossus	123(+11)/250	+3	14/30(6)5	6
9	Colossus	134(+11)/250	+3	17/30(5)5	5
8	Colossus	145(+11)/250	+3	20/30(4)5	4
7	Colossus	156(+11)/250	+3	23/30(3)5	3
6	Colossus	167(+11)/250	+3	26/30(2)5	2	Switch to worker
*switch	Worker		0(+10)/80	0	26/30(-)5	2
5	Worker		10(+10)/80	0	26/30(-)5	1	Whip
*whip	Worker		100(+10)/80	0	26/26(1)3	11
4	Colossus	167(+79)/250	+5	13/28(3)4	10
3	Colossus	246(+11)/250	+5	18/28(2)4	9	Switch to smth else

[binTravkin]

Build plan for third city:

22	Obelisk		0(+2)/30	+2	0/22(11)1	0
21	Obelisk		2(+2)/30	+2	2/22(10)1	0
20	Obelisk		4(+22)/30	+2	4/22(9)1	0	chop
19	Obelisk		26(+2)/30	+2	6/22(8)1	0	
18	Obelisk		28(+2)/30	+2	8/22(7)1	0	
17	Forge		0(+4)/120	+2	10/22(6)1	0	
16	Forge		4(+4)/120	+2	12/22(5)1	0	
15	Forge		8(+8)/120	+3	14/22(3)1	0	pasture
14	Forge		16(+8)/120	+3	17/22(2)1	0
13	Forge		24(+8)/120	+3	20/22(1)1	0
11	Forge		32(+12)/120	+2	1/24(12)2	0
10	Forge		44(+12)/120	+2	3/24(11)2	0
9	Forge		56(+12)/120	+2	5/24(10)2	0
8	Forge		68(+12)/120	+2	7/24(9)2	0
7	Forge		80(+12)/120	+2	9/24(8)2	0	expansion
6	Forge		92(+12)/120	+2	11/24(7)2	0
5	Forge		104(+12)/120	+2	13/24(6)2	0
4	Forge		115(+12)/120	+2	15/24(5)2	0
3	Ax		4(+7)/35	+2	17/24(4)2	0	Forge done
2	Ax		11(+12)/35	+1	19/24(5)2	0	mine done
1	Ax		23(+12)/35	+1	20/24(4)2	0	Ax done
0	Ax		0(+12)/35	+1	21/24(3)2	0

EDIT: *this city could finish barracks as last item too

[N35t0r]

I'd rather have it build something else than an unvet axe (like a barracks), especially since we've already got Tassagrad to pop out vet units if need be.

[binTravkin]

Well, we have 18 turns to decide, and probably by then we'll be able to assist this city with another chop in which case Barracks would be easy to finish instead of an Ax.

[PJayTycy]

bt, I checked you accounting for Being. I have some comments:

=> first whip turn, we'll have 27+90 = 117 hammers (instead of 116)
=> so on turn 14, we'll have 70 overflow ((117+5)-90)*(2,75/1,25) instead of 68
=> on turn 4 however, I think we'll have only 66 overflow
((100+10)-80)*(2,75/1,25) instead of 79. I don't know how you got 79 ?

All-in-all, I think we'll need one turn more. Your first whip is very on-the-edge though, our current unhappiness will be gone either that turn or the turn after. I'm not sure about that...

Whipping something and pouring the oveflow into the collossus seems a good strategy :-) (much better than whipping the collossus and pouring overflow into something else).


[edit]I just noticed in-game we can not start a library next turn (we won't have writing yet). So, we should do 1 turn of collosus first and moving everything one turn down. I didn't re-calculate yet, but that will probably mean our population count and hammer production might differ for some (or even all) of the turns.[/edit]