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**Randolph** · February 2, 2007, 15:54

To me, two axes seem a bit light to deal with barbarians and (potentially) 3+ Vox archers, but I know there are people here who can be very efficient with units.

I think we hashed out our plan RE: Vox (appearing to) attack Winestrom (wait to the last possible turn and rush a skirm), but what is our plan if they attempt to fortify inside our boarders? Do we bash them out with axes, or let them sit there while we continue with the catapult plan?

**Arrian** · February 2, 2007, 17:55

Well, my plan calls for a total of 3 new non-city defender units: 2 axes and a skirmisher (which could be an axe if we want). That counters three enemy units reasonably well, especially when you consider that if we need a unit to finish off a wounded Voxian archer that beat the odds and survived, we will have the garrison skirms in Winestrom + the new city.

-Arrian

**Arrian** · February 2, 2007, 17:59

The reason I have the axes stationed on the desert hill is that it's the road hub between EotS, Winestrom and the 3rd city. Thus the 2 axes can react to any Voxian incursion. The Voxians pretty much have to come at us from the east/north (threatening Winestrom/3rd city and environs). If that is the case, the Axes have Skirm help.

In order for them to threaten us from another direction, they would have to either:

a) march those three archers around, which we would either see b/c Winestrom is so close to The Voice or would take forever; or

b) slip other archers out via the gold hill switcheroo, which I think we're wise to now.

-Arrian

**Blake** · February 2, 2007, 19:28

We need some speculation on what Vox will try.

Vox have two possible meta-strategies, try to stay in the game, or try to make our conquest expensive.

Vox Stay in the Game:
I see two strategies here, firstly they can trek a settler North and ask for Sanctuary, I'm pretty sure AC would laugh in their face but Banana would probably whimsically accept. I don't think this is much of a problem because it'd just waste territory up there and it'd help raise tensions too, possibly in a positive way (ie more justification for war).
Alternatively they could found a coastal city, train a galley, and ship a 2nd settler out. I wouldn't even entertain this idea, except that Vox seemed pretty keen on Sailing for unlocking communications, and sailing otherwise seems pretty useless to them.
This would leave Vox on some crappy offshore island, since continents is not known for having significant landmasses reachable by Galley (Pangaea and Terra often does). This would make Vox a real joke and they wouldn't be able to do much.

I consider any "Vox stay in the game" strategy to be positive for us, since every settler trained is 5 less archers (1 settler = 4 archers, +1 garrison against barbs). If they take it to an extreme we might even be able to just axerush them but I would still hesitate to make that investment when we are getting pults.

Vox Moral Victory against GS:
Again there's basically two strategies for Vox to pursue in being a pain to us (however minimal that pain may be), firstly they can try and counter-choke us, the (in)effectiveness of this will depend greatly on our ability to force Vox archers onto the flats where they can be murdered (and given the opportunity we should terminate any Vox units with extreme prejudice).

Assuming we gracefully deal with the counter-choke it's a good thing for us, since it means less units in The Voice.

The alternative is to do minimal counter-choking (just annoying us) and get as many archers as possible to make taking the Voice expensive. I think that our choke has been light enough that they wont feel compelled to pursue this strategy.

Of the four possible strategies I suspect they'll try asking for sanctuary and even if that fails just found a city up north somewhere. However the possibility of a counter-choke shouldn't be dismissed and my next post will cover defending against that at minimal cost to us.

**Blake** · February 2, 2007, 19:52

The important thing with defense is denying the enemy defensive territory next to our stuff. I have arrow'd the two most important Vox approach routes and the tile we need to block in order to create flat land kill-zones (dotted red).

Note that as long as we hold those X'd tiles and can kill anything crossing adjacent tiles we don't actually need city garrisons (other than for the happy, which we will need at size 4 until furs is up). Also for the more northern X we can move the unit into the next forest up and move back reactively if a unit tries to get past. That should certainly stop any barbarians trying to get down.

Also of consideration is the forested hill circled in yellow - an excellent city site and perfect choke against things coming from the North. It would be very wise for Vox to put one of their archers there to deny us using it. Vox may or may not be that wise, and if not we probably want to try and get a unit on it - but if Vox do we wont have a chance to beat them to it, their archers are much closer. So it's not really priority.

Defending the south will be somewhat more of a mess - fortunately there's not much worth defending down there...

Still an investment of a fogbuster (skirm or axe) on one of the blue circled tiles would be a good idea.

The specifics of dealing with barbarian attacks from other directions can just be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. We can expect them to start coming once players have an average of 3 cities (so quite soon if our expansion is any measure).

**Hot Mustard** · February 3, 2007, 12:27

This is super guys! I think it's important to get our ideas down in topic-particular threads that turn-players can look to for guidance, should they need to make decisions that the orders don't cover.

So, we're calling for 4 military units to be produced - 2 Axes from EotS, and one Skirm from Winestrom, and one additional unit from EotS - either Axe or Skirm - is that right?

Are we going to be able to squeeze another worker in there somewhere, or will we wait until all those military units are out? I'm assuming the Furs settler can definitely wait for now.

**Krill** · February 3, 2007, 21:12

Move the Skirm in Wineström 4 the trun before we buidl the settler, so the skirm can escourt the setler to the city site...it protects agaisnt Barbs, and we can alwasy whip the skirm in Ws if needed...

**DeepO** · February 4, 2007, 19:38

Given this situation, we might need to whip the skirm in Winestrom right now. We will need to get some defense in our 3rd city, and can't wait until the axe completes in EotS.

I'd say:
- whip the skirm next turn, and move the one that is currently there 4 or 7.
- Then, priority #1 for the worker (2?) is to road to the city site, 48 of where it is now.
- Once the road completes, the skirm can move to the desert hill until the axe completes.
- The first axe replaces the skirm on the desert hill and the skirm moves to defend city #3.
- When the second axe completes, we can move that on the hill, and have the first axe to take one of Blake's crosses.

That should give us the most defense against vox. Right now, they can have 1 archer attacking Winestrom in 4 turns, or city #3 in 6 turns. A second archer (wounded) can join 1 turn later. and a 3rd 2 turns after that. Vox needs to beeline straight for the sweet spots, which is unlikely, but we better take those eta's in thought when planning our production.

So, I'd say: rush the skirm now. We might delay it for 1 or possibly 2 turns, but not longer than that... I'd hate to lose a city to a roaming Voxian archer

DeepO

**DeepO** · February 4, 2007, 19:41

BTW, we might consider roading 2 more tiles for defense: Eots 8 and 89. EotS is going to be our production center, and roading those tiles shaves off 1 turn towards city #3.

DeepO

**Arrian** · February 5, 2007, 09:19

Blake and I agree that we need to cover the approaches to Winestrom (hill to the east) and the new city (forest tile to the east). I'm not as concerned about the southeast, but getting a unit out there for fogbusting would be good at some point in the not-too-distant future.

The first axe out of EotS should take the place of the skirm we're sending to the desert hill. That skirm should move to the forest tile we need to hold east of our new city.

-Arrian

**Arrian** · February 5, 2007, 09:25

I think we're all agreed on 2 axes from EotS asap.

EotS is producing 12h/turn. Axes are what, 40h? Skirms are 25.

...

Is that right?

EDIT: no, it's not. Axes are 35h, so my math was all wrong. See below.

-Arrian

**Krill** · February 5, 2007, 09:34

Axes are 35 hammers on normal speed iirc...though it has been a long time since I played a normal speed game.

**Arrian** · February 5, 2007, 09:34

I thought archers (skirms) and chariots were 25 hammers. Warriors are 15. Axes are more...

-Arrian

**Arrian** · February 5, 2007, 09:37

Civfanatics is good for a few things. I was right about skirms/chariots, but wrong about axes. They are 35 hammers.

Redoing the math... Axes are 3 turns each, with 1 h overflow. I say then we do three in a row, taking 9 turns. Then we have 3 h overflow. Then a skirm would take two turns (2 h overflow).

-Arrian

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