Membership/Security Issue

[notyoueither]

Metaliturtle is no longer with us. During the course of this chat I came to the conclusion that I should get him out of our forum ASAP. He followed my adivice to leave. I may have overreacted, but I wanted to preserve the integrity of this game as an utmost goal.

Metaliturtle wants to join the Horde... This is against the rules of the game as I understand any MP DG rules, but I would be prepared to argue at some point in the future for M to be able to join the Horde. At some point in the distant future... way after contact. I am not aware of this being allowed in any other DG I have been in, but if enough time goes by I don't see the harm.

Then I met paddy... and I am wondering just wth is going on. Read for yourself.

Metaliturtle:
Question for you
nye:
yes?
Metaliturtle:
can I switch teams in the C4DG?
nye:
the c4isdg?
Metaliturtle:
no the one on apolyton
nye:
leave gathering storm?
Metaliturtle:
yes
nye:
not easily.
may i ask what your thinking is?
Metaliturtle:
1. GS has the greatest amount of players, so many that it's hard to recommend something before another
Metaliturtle:
2. All of my "forum buddies" if you will play on the Horde
Metaliturtle:
3. I would rather be on a team with my buddies
nye:
i see.
how did it come to pass that you joined gs instead of the horde then?
Metaliturtle:
Because when GT asked Paddy initially, Paddy didn't recall who I was
Metaliturtle:
so I joined GS because it seemed like the one all the good players were on
Metaliturtle:
obviously the horde would get no info about GS from me, Snoopy will be able to monitor that
Metaliturtle:
I'd even be willing to not be on any team for like a month so that my inability to access forums is assured
nye:
i see.
unfortunately i have some bad news, snoopy or no. you couldn't leave gs for the horde prior to contact even if we let you>
the second part of the bad news is that is very unlikely we would allow a member of gs to go to another team while gs is still in the game
nye:
why not just join the horde in the game on cgn?
Metaliturtle:
because that's a different team
nye:
give me a moment
nye:
who is it in particular who are 'forum buddies' on the horde?
Metaliturtle:
Grandpa Troll,
Metaliturtle:
Paddy
Metaliturtle:
Chrisius
Metaliturtle:
James
Metaliturtle:
just to name a few
nye:
where do you know these folks from?
Metaliturtle:
guys that I wrote stories with back in the day etc.
nye:
i see
nye:
well, there are many of these games. there will be other games to join your buddies.
there is a slim possibility that you could join them in this game prior to the demise of gs. are you set on your preferences, and would you like to know what you would need to do?
Metaliturtle:
could you rephrase that?
nye:
1. there are and will be other games. do you need to join the horde now?
2. by normal rules you can't laeave a team and join another prior to the original team being destroyed.
3. there may be a way for you to join the horde in this game prior to gs being wiped out, but it would require some sacrifice. do you want to discuss it?
Metaliturtle:
sure, what kind of sacrifice?
nye:
well, gs would have to agree to you joining the other team. that could not happen prior to contact, and would be unlikely at any early stage.
nye:
the longer you are on gs, and the more you know, the less likely it is that the members of gs would agree to let you join the others
nye:
at this early stage, however...
nye:
i would be inclined to recommend you be able to join the horde at a late point of this game provided you leave gs immediately
nye:
i mean right this minute
nye:
no storing threads
nye:
no copying anything
nye:
leave. now. and i will recommend we allow you to join the horde after a long time has past after contact
Metaliturtle:
ok boot me
nye:
you must leave
Metaliturtle:
will do
nye:
unjoin the civ group
Metaliturtle:
I'm oot
nye:
give me a moment
nye:
ok. you understand there will be a long time before gs could agree to you joining the horde, and that the members of gs will have to approve it?
Metaliturtle:
no, I understand that I'm out of GS and to divulge any GS info while on another team would be game breaking and cheating
nye:
you won;t be allowed to join the horde
nye:
until after contact at the earliest, and not until gs approves it in any case
Metaliturtle:
why after contact?
nye:
do you understand this?
Metaliturtle:
seems it would make more sense beforehand because I don't have a clue where either of us are on the map
nye:
because you have knowlegde of our geography
nye:
teams are to have no contact. how are immigrants no contact?
Metaliturtle:
not really, I stopped watching that stuff when people stopped responding to my posts
Metaliturtle:
I just want to have fun playing civ
nye:
sorry, dude, but we have rules, and the other members of gs have expectations of people we admitted to the team. is that unreasonable?
nye:
*the game has rules
nye:
i don;t know of a single team dg, anywhere, that would allow immigrants before contact. in fact most ban it until your team is eliminated.
i don;t see a point in holding you a prisoner, so i will argue for you joining the horde at a point that would be in acord with essential rules, and when i am satisfied that whatever you may tell them can not hinder gs
Metaliturtle:
technically as long as I didn't mention anything about GS at all I can join the horde
nye:
i hope i am being fair
nye:
technically, you may not join the horde at all this game
nye:
i have told you, the only possibility is that we have contact and then that gs agree to it
Metaliturtle:
I'd like snoopy to rule on it
nye:
in fact, that gs argue for it
Metaliturtle:
I'm willing to wait
nye:
it would be good if you speak to snoopy
Metaliturtle:
the reality of the situation though is that I haven't followed what the team was doing since probably turn 3 aside from making that Vox picture and some diplo with banana that amounted to almost nothing
Metaliturtle:
I don't have a good picture of the geography, nor do I want to
nye:
i understand
Metaliturtle:
I want GS to be the best team it can be or the game is no fun
nye:
however, you ahev to appreciate that no other team would agree to emmigration pre contact.
Metaliturtle:
The horde would contingent on the fact that I don't post anything about GS for the whole game
nye:
and post contact, the members of gs are going to have to be satisfied that you are not taking anything with you that matters
Metaliturtle:
I already left
Metaliturtle:
what could I take?
nye:
there is one other issue...
nye:
knowledge
nye:
Metaliturtle:
I already left
Metaliturtle:
what could I take?

nye:
knowledge
nye:
and then there is another issue
nye:
aside from all that... does this have anything to do with the cufluffle over the Warlords DG?
Metaliturtle:
nope
Metaliturtle:
you had our backs in that one
nye:
just curious about the timing
Metaliturtle:
I just want to be on a team with my friends
nye:
do you understand there are road blocks in this game that have to be overcome?
Metaliturtle:
yeah snoopy just said no
nye:
i thought so. nothing else he could say
Metaliturtle:
I guess I must encourage the Horde to destroy GS if I want on that team
nye:
heh, that is one way. we will have to trust that you would do nothing that could give the horde an unfair advantage
nye:
and that brings me to that other issue
nye:
i advise you to walk carefully. i am inclined to argue for you joining the horde at a point much later in this game, but there are worse things than not being able to join the horde now or at some point in the future of this game
Metaliturtle:
I know
nye:
you know the hisotry?
nye:
*history
Metaliturtle:
not a clue
nye:
spies, dl's and cheating
nye:
that makes this harder. the second you asked...
Metaliturtle:
yes?
nye:
in a previous game there was a very bad event. it destroyed that game. it involved the horde and team membership of people on the horde in more than one team
nye:
it was very ugly
Metaliturtle:
I did not know this
Metaliturtle:
what happened?
nye:
i could urge nothing stronger than to not try to take any shortcuts. if you are caught, this game is dead, and some permabans might come down the pipe
Metaliturtle:
yeah, I didn't realize all of this stuff had happened
Metaliturtle:
I won't join the Horde because of that risk
nye:
i advise waitning til gs say 'ok', and not try to push things in the meantime. one sec...
Metaliturtle:
I don't want to cheat or be labeled a cheater, so I just won't play this one anymore
nye:
i am not saying you are a cheat, and i'd like to help you join the horde in the long run. however, read this
nye:

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=142096

nye:
have you discussed this with anyone on the horde?
Metaliturtle:
yeah I'm discussing it with Paddy now
nye:
before you asked me?
Metaliturtle:
no, I didn't know anything about the dl stuff
nye:
feel free to copy him this chat and what i have said. better yet, invite him here
Metaliturtle:
invited

paddythescot@hotmail.com has been added to the conversation.

nye:
hello, paddy
Metaliturtle:
hi paddy
paddy:
hello nye
nye:
where are we?
paddy:
lads, please know I am at work, so if not answer straight away etc, I will be back momintarily
Metaliturtle:
ok
nye:
sure
Metaliturtle:
To breakdown the convo a little bit it went something like this:
Metaliturtle:
I mentioned to Paddy that I wanted to switch teams
Metaliturtle:
I said I should talk to nye about it
Metaliturtle:
Paddy afaik was in favor of me switching but wanted to ask his team
Metaliturtle:
meanwhile nye informed me about all kinds of screwy dl stuff as well as other really good reasons why I can't switch teams this game
Metaliturtle:
and snoopy said I couldn't switch teams
paddy:
nye = do you think MTT is a dl?
nye:
no, but it would be against all rules for a person to change teams prior to contact.
Metaliturtle:
I'm in Central WI, Paddy afaik is in australia
nye:
and then usually no moves until the original team is dead.
nye:
i have told M that I would be willing to argue that he be allowed to move at some distant point after contact when gs can be comfortable that he is taking nothing of value with him
paddy:
rules are good and all thatr
but at the end of the day we are playing a game

game should = fun

this is not real life
my lads are really not going to storm through your town leaving the women satisfied and the men dead

we come to poly to have fun
paddy:
neither gs or horde have met
nye:
and to play a game, and games have rules
paddy:
yeah rules indeed
paddy:
and this is not a biggy
nye:
the fact we haven;t met is stronger reason that all would say 'no', including myself
paddy:
all are not saying no
paddy:
I for one say yes
Metaliturtle:
thats what I didn't understand
nye:
i'm willing to bend, but not break
paddy:
well I would like to see this taken to the open forum for discussion
paddy:
lets all be quite clear about this
nye:
why?
nye:
prior to contact, what is there to discuss?
paddy:
we are the players, and it is our time and effort invested
nye:
after contact, it is up to gs.
paddy:
someone would like to get in a boat and move
nye:
gs are players too
paddy:
yes
nye:
not just you and your horde, paddy
paddy:
not saying you not
paddy:
be nice
nye:
you act as if we are not
paddy:
get over it
nye:
why would you even ask this?
paddy:
I did not
Metaliturtle:
me?
nye:
ok. i will back off a moment
paddy:
where did I say you not players
paddy:
come on?
nye:
paddy, you want to take this to the forum over someone changing teams pre contact?
paddy:
we play to have fun, not to be rulz nazi
paddy:
yeah I happy for it to be an open matter
nye:
nazi?
nye:
come again
Metaliturtle:
I wanted to be on the same team as GT, who I invited to my friggin' wedding, same team as Chrisius who started writing stories on this forum about the same time I did, and I want to be on a team with my friends from the C4SPDG, a majority of which are members of the Horde
paddy:
rulz nazi = someone that must go by the book
Metaliturtle:
all I want
paddy:
MTT woiuld be in the horde now except I said no a .long time agoi = my error
nye:
i am telling you what would be acceptable to the members of gs, at a minimum.
you ask why we get in the way of your fun
who the **** are you?
paddy:
do you really believe MTT has some major intel that will swing the game?
paddy:
chill, I am a player as you are

I not stuck up about it
paddy:
so chill
paddy:
you are so uptight
nye:
you sure as hell are stuck up.
nobodies fun counts but you5rs
paddy:
go find a woman
nye:
i see the real paddy
nye:
not a pleasant sight
paddy:
nye, you know so little
paddy:
you never would - go play with beta
nye:
i know enough not to encourage someone in an impossible request
paddy:
you never want to tell mne you here for fun
paddy:
was a question
paddy:
not a hard one
nye:
you know as well as i that M would never be allowed to change teams in any normal dg
nye:
so, why encourage him?
paddy:
and we happy to see it debated openly
nye:
to stir up more ****?
paddy:
I stir no ****
nye:
Ha!
paddy:
he asked a reasonable question
paddy:
how hard is that
paddy:
is he having fun in GS?
nye:
problem is, he joined gs.
nye:
after that, gs has some say, yes?
Metaliturtle:
because I wanted to PLAY THE GAME
paddy:
as to knowing what you think, I do not presume, so thus the question should be asked
Metaliturtle:
right now I watch mostly repetetive debates about unit placement between players who are so much better than me that I'm uncomfortable even asking a question
nye:
it is unfortunate, M. That is why I told you I would argue for you to be able to move at a later point after contact
paddy:
how much later are you meaning nye?
Metaliturtle:
so where are we? The Horde will show up
nye:
but no way, no how, is anything happening that the members of gs don;t agree to
nye:
paddy:
how much later are you meaning nye?

when the members of gs agree that no advantage of knowledge goes with him
paddy:
that is understandable
Metaliturtle:
why can't that happen before contact?
nye:
it would be later game. we would have to consider many things. no one has ever been allowed to move from an active teram before
nye:
no one has ever been allowed to move from an active teram before
nye:
M, because knowledge goes with you
Metaliturtle:
like what? I won't talk about GS at all
nye:
You know if there is jungle to our N or S, or if there is ice, and which way it is, and, and, and
Metaliturtle:
there's no way that I can respond to that without incriminating myself as a spy
paddy:
old saves and the password etc... that as well
paddy:
yes there sure is a lot of intel you could / would know
nye:
that could help your new team make contact. and then you know a lot about any possible prior contacts, or lack of them, and that is all important information
paddy:
just knowing who are the most active players is amazing intel
paddy:
as well as knowing whose opinions carry the most weight
nye:
indeed.
that is why i urged hiom to leave gs immediately, so that i could argue at some point to the other members of gs that he be allowed to join the horde
nye:
but that point will be sometime in the future, after contact
paddy:
have to gotoi customer = `15 mins
Metaliturtle:
k
Metaliturtle:
well I'ma fix me some chili

[snoopy369]

He approached me as well around an hour or an hour and a half ago... my response was "no", as I don't think it would be approved by the teams as a whole, GS approving or not, and it's generally against DG spirit/rules anyway.

It needs not be said that I will be monitoring this to the best of my ability ...

[notyoueither]

I smell something foul.

I am wondering whether to bring this to the attention of the administration of the site.

M asks to join the Horde out of the blue. Except it's not out of the blue.

Did M discuss this with the Horde before talking to me? No, except "I mentioned to Paddy that I wanted to switch teams. I [sic] said I should talk to nye about it'

Sounds like paddy knew about this before M asked.

And then there is paddy... that's a whole other topic. In short, ever since the blow up in the C3CDG, it seems that some people from some teams are doing their best to create or encourage strife on Poly, and drag people back to the site they would prefer to 'play' on.

The whole thing stinks. That's all i can say.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by snoopy369
It needs not be said that I will be monitoring this to the best of my ability ...

I was going to PM you next.

[snoopy369]

I have already approached Ming about this, though I don't think there is anything substantial we (Ming or I) can do other than ensure he does not join and be approved for the Horde's team. It is certainly possible to have out of game discussions without anyone knowing about it on our end.

I will, as I have for every team, continue to read every thread and if anything is inappropriate bring it to either the administration or the teams as appropriate.

I would add that I generally think positively of Metaliturtle from my interactions with him, both in RL at apolycon and in other places on Apolyton. I would not assume the worst of him unless/until something comes up to show otherwise...

[notyoueither]

I agree re M.

The smell I am sniffing is coming from his prospective team mates. The blow up with Locutus... I can see that Locutus maybe didn't argue well to a hostile audience... I am wondering why he had a hostile audience.

And then, wtf is paddy doing encouraging M to ask to change teams? Paddy has been around. He knows the ropes. Something stinks, and it isn't M.

And a boo-yah for calling a spade a spade and hostile diplomacy.

This conversation has been inactive; some participants will be removed.

Metaliturtle has been removed.

Metaliturtle has been added to the conversation.

paddythescot@hotmail.com has not been added to this conversation yet.

nye
so, where are we?

Paddy has been added to the conversation.

nye
so, where are we?
Paddy
hi there
Paddy
big smiles nye
Paddy
I noty here to cause ****
Paddy
a good lad just wanted to change teams so he could join Gramps and Chris, his mate
Paddy
just trying to facilitate so he could
Metaliturtle
hey
nye
surely you know about how mp dg's work, and why?
Paddy
yeah
Metaliturtle
I dunno
Paddy
so to I know it is a game
nye
yes, a game i am sure you care about winning, yes?
Metaliturtle
I don't actually
nye
q was to paddy
Paddy
.yeah I do care about it...
so to I care about the people in it, even you lot that are not Horde
nye
very gracious of you to care so much about us that you are willing to argue for someone to change teams with all that knowledge..
Might white of you
Paddy
what?>
Metaliturtle
he'd argue for me no matter which team I'd want to switch to if I wasn't enjoying the game
Metaliturtle
I'd do the same thing
nye
what i said stands, with typos. no further explanation is needed in my opinion
Paddy
well we were trying to reason with you nye
nye
reason? that is why you insult me when i am prepared to argue for something no other dg has ever allowed?
i wouldn;t want to see you without 'reason'.
Paddy
insult you.. precious... do not bother to read the chat then...
Paddy
you and I gave whatfor to each other
Paddy
it was no one way street
Paddy
but I happy to make it a one way street
nye
i've read it. twice.
you're an A class ass, that is affirmed
Paddy
go jhump
Paddy
bye
nye
i'm not the only one who's going to read it, for what that's worth
Paddy
really
nye
s'truth
Paddy
post it publicly then
Paddy
good on ya3
Paddy

nye
it's posted
Paddy
have fun editing it to your liking
Paddy
good man

Metaliturtle has left the conversation.

Paddy
could not expect better
nye
not when you are involved and you know what **** you yourself woudl do
nye
i like the editing comment btw, very high class
nye
is that what you do?
Paddy

Paddy
have a luagh will ya
nye
why? you insult me and then ask me to laugh? what kind of ******* are you?
Paddy
chill out
nye
**** you
Paddy
are you telling me you did not have a go at me in there?
nye
chill yourself, or apologise
Paddy
hahaha
Paddy
apologise... hahaha
nye
indeed
Paddy
did you not have a go at me in there as well?
nye
where abouts?
nye
before or after the nazi comment?
nye
before or after you behaved as if the fun of the horde and wannabe horde are the only things that count?
nye
wtf are you trying to pull, paddy?
you would obviously be happier at cgn, so why not stay there?
Paddy
chill
nye
**** you
Paddy
I play civ at several sites
nye
feel free
Paddy
see one of us is upset here
Paddy
and it not me
Paddy
you take care now
nye
i'm not upset. i simply have very little patience for *******s with an agenda
Paddy
my agenda is the same - play games and enjoy
not get upset, nor be upset by others

I am sorry for upseting you nye, that is truth
Paddy
I am sorry
nye
bull****. you revel in being in the middle of **** stirred pots
Paddy
my intent was not to upset you
nye
the whole horde reraction to locutus, and now this. things become clearer and clearer
nye
i'm not upset. i am seeing the spots on the leopard
Paddy
I apologises nye
nye
for what?
Paddy
for upseting you in my chat with you
nye
as I said, i am not upset. i am recognising things
i can tell someone to **** off without being upset
Paddy
ok
Paddy
be well and enjoy your day
nye
explain to me this.
knowing what dg rules are, why did you encourage M?
Paddy
because he is a good lad, well known to many many people
one not known for cheating or hurrting people

one who likes to have a lot of fun

one who claims that he not having chnace to have fun at GS
Paddy
yet has mates in horde and wants to enjoy the game
Paddy
thought you would understand is all
Paddy
and from what I read you do
Paddy
as in possibly willing to let him join later
nye
why insult me over it? if i did get pissed off, i would be saying he's **** out of luck\
Paddy
did not mean to insult you
Paddy
was chatting
Paddy
then defending
nye
you did a good job of it. nazi... get a woman... join beta
Paddy
sorry, maybe I should not have had chat with you while at work
Paddy
nazi - opps, was not meaning you...
nye
maybe you should learn to keep a civil tongue in your keyboard.
Paddy
get a woman - I apologise, I suck at this diplo
Paddy
join beta, yeah again, I apologise, that is a low blow as well


ok I was way out a line
nye
all of that was bad enough, but the beta comment?!!
Paddy
hehe
Paddy
yes yes
Paddy
will only drink rum toinight as punishment... no Black Jack
Paddy

Paddy
nye you have been valid and open with me on many many issues for many a year - that I appreciate
Paddy
I not trying to piss you off
Paddy
I am sorry
nye
OK. Forget about it.
nye
GS will discuss M's situation. I will ask the team to cionsider allowing him to go some time after contact.
Paddy
nope will not forget... must learn to be a nicer person
nye
agreed
Paddy
I not a nice person naturally
Paddy
I try to be, but I never have been
nye
that's natural for a scot
nye

Paddy
I grew up in a very violent place, in the main bar at family pub
nye
especially a scot surrounded by aussies and kiwis. must be hell
Paddy
my tongue was usually used after the fight
Paddy
is indeed
Paddy
you should meet my da and uncles
nye
i'd rather keep my teeth, thanks
Paddy
I was born here, have more an aussie accent than the,
Paddy

Paddy
I think they would like you
Paddy
they have previously commented on your tigers
nye
everyone loves me. i'm changing my name to raymond
Paddy
opps
nye
hehe
Paddy
hehe
nye
anyway. i am off soon.
do we have any business for the public forum?
Paddy
nothing here
Paddy
as long as you and I have some level of happiness
nye
we're fine
Paddy
be well
nye
you too

[Krill]

That is it.

Smell something bad? Quite frankly I've known the horde for 18 months now, and they smell of ****.

I'm all for calling to have this game scrapped adn the horde thrown off poly.

They are approaching the same ****ing level that Lucky is on.

[Krill]

****, I jsut read the ending.

Paddy is past Lucky now. Not even Lucky got a DL on one game and then tried to pull that **** in a second game.



OK...I'm going to try adn stay calm, and reason this, from a logical point of view, so that the other 5 teams are not overly affected by this.

Paddy can go **** himself.

nye said it loud and clear. No member has ever swapped teams while the team they were originally one was active. Paddy knows the position of his team from the last demogame, and that this was effectively their chance at rehabilitation at Poly.

We know that they joined CGN months ago for the ISDG. We know that they don't accept that what hapened in the last game almost destroyed all DG here, they weven wanted to carry that game on!

They aren't around to stick up for other peoples fun, just their own, the selfish gits.

[vmxa1]

This sort shakey behaving is why I stop playing online games. People just cannot seem to play for fun and experience. They seem compelled to try to get an unfair advantage.

[Arrian]

Bloody hell.

Paddy is such an *******. Damn.

-Arrian

[Randolph]

Wow...
Kind of Surreal

[notyoueither]

I think we should go easy on this.

It is obvious that Paddy has very poor judgement. It is possible that there are some underhanded motives here, but they are as likely to be related to hard feelings with Apolyton and attempts to create strife here as they are about having a spy on GS. This is my opinion.

Afterall, having your spy who is successfully planted ask the 'State Department' for an exit visa to go home does not really strike me as something that would happen if espionage aimed at GS were the goal.

That being said, we should keep an eye on things. I am in no rush to have Ming on any sort of hunt, but to examine IP addresses for Horde member access around the time we get contact could be a viable precaution.

Parting thought on this topic is that there are at least two people on the Horde who I feel could be relied on to scream bloody murder if anything cheaty were being done in front of them. Grampa Troll cares a great deal about the Apolyton community and seems to be a fair person. Plato gives me the impression that he would not want to be associated with anything underhanded either.

In short, steady as she goes and keep an eye out for obvious things.

[Krill]

I don't think MT would be a spy, or that he would pass infomation to the otherside about screenshots, save passwords etc. I think though that what Paddy is trying to do basically makes BOH vulnerable to all of the **** that has plagued them. OK, I went overboard back there, but people could very easily claim that they are doing what they are did again. It is stilll in the same league as Lucky.

I disagree on Plato profusely. In all of my time knowing him with BOH he has always cared more for that group than anyone else...as has CM. Paddy was the one who seemed to be the fairest.

Though I definately think GT would do as you state.

[Arrian]

I'm not particularly worried. I'm annoyed at Paddy, but I don't believe Metaliturtle was a spy.

Your plan, NYE, was entirely reasonable (to discuss a switch once significant in-game time had passed). Paddy's reaction to it was bull****, plain and simple, ESPECIALLY after what happend in that other game (which I thankfully wasn't involved in). I mean, he had the gall to say that the rule about not switching teams was unimportant.

Anyway, I'm fine with taking a calm, relaxed approach to this and proceeding with your original plan of action - let's discuss a time table for when we would be comfortable with M joining the Horde. Contact is one good option. It's probably a long way off (optics).

-Arrian

[notyoueither]

I need a volunteer who is here at the same time I am.

M sent me a message that he can still see the Banana diplo thread in 'My Threads'.

I'd like someone to 'leave' GS and see if you can still access any GS threads through 'My Threads' (not just see them). If you can still access threads here we have a small problem.

I'll then readmit you right away.