Turn 29, 2880BC

[Mudhut]

Hmmm...I think I start to understand more now.

Although it makes me ask, again: with this history, what on earth were Vox doing in the early turns of this game? From the moment they saw us (and remember, they saw us earlier than we saw them), they should have known that conflict was inevitable. I just don't understand their early play at all.

[Krill]

I'm not the best person to answer that question, and I doubt many here are, as none of us know the full extent of the Voxian knowledge of this game. But one possibility, which I hope the KGB department can refute, is that Vox has AH or BW already via hut pop. And they have one of those resources, or God forbid settled on one.

[Krill]

Or Vox serious underestimated how much we want empty land.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Mudhut
Hmmm...I think I start to understand more now.

Although it makes me ask, again: with this history, what on earth were Vox doing in the early turns of this game? From the moment they saw us (and remember, they saw us earlier than we saw them), they should have known that conflict was inevitable. I just don't understand their early play at all.

I don't think they took the past into account. I didn't.

War due to the religion was a possibility. War for that and the scout was simply the right thing to do.

Add the distance and it's an absolute no-brainer. The mistake they made was throwing the scout away.

[Arrian]

We basically had a bullseye on us in the PTWDG... not only did people think we had a team of "ringers" before the game started, then we created a powerful civ out of fairly crapply land, stopped and then reversed an Immortal rush and then we got involved on BOB (the main continent). We built wonders, we had the most powerful army, and we also were one of the tech leaders.

I think most of the other teams figured that if we got a foothold on BOB, we might run away with it. And I think they were right to worry. Hell, even after we were kicked off of BOB and relegated to our smallish island, we concentrated on our economy, came roaring back, nabbed the tech lead in the industrial age and competed right through to the end.

-Arrian

[Cort Haus]

I think most of the other teams figured that if we got a foothold on BOB, we might run away with it. And I think they were right to worry. Hell, even after we were kicked off of BOB and relegated to our smallish island, we concentrated on our economy, came roaring back, nabbed the tech lead in the industrial age and competed right through to the end.

We also got sweet and terrible revenge on Lego for aiding our enemies in the previous wars. After that, nothing else mattered for me.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
We also got sweet and terrible revenge on Lego for aiding our enemies in the previous wars. After that, nothing else mattered for me.

Same here... When Lego fell (well actually, the moment we could land our troops and take out half their cities), I felt about everything we could achieve we got. There was even a shot at staying in the game longer, but with Lego, I felt we prooved who we were...

As to carried over animosity: not for me, and in the end the relation with Vox was amicable. Baiting us with their scout was indeed a mistake, if they wanted to stay out of war with us. I don't buy the point about their religion though: I didn't see it as a reason to go to war over (simply because I didn't realize how important the religion situation was/is), so there is a good chance Vox didn't see the war coming either. Not everyone will go to war when religion might spread to their capital...

They shouldn't have baited us, though. Religion or no religion, a scout is just too valuable so early on. This time, it's Vox that treated a human team as a super-AI

DeepO

[vmxa1]

I think most of us felt the smack down on Legoland was vindication, but I sure would have like to see what would have happen if those two teams had not had a locked agreement.

I believe we had the strongest team by far. One could argue the at the top 2 or 3 it is close, but how about the 6th or 8th on our team. They were as good as the top ones.

I think the religion all by itself would not trigger a war, but we had a few convirgences. One, they were right on top of us and we had an early UU, then they tipped the scales with the scout.

I have to think DeepO is correct that they did not consider the religion as an added incentive to jump at the chance. It is either that or we have been giving them too much credit.

[Blake]

Originally posted by DeepO
I don't buy the point about their religion though: I didn't see it as a reason to go to war over (simply because I didn't realize how important the religion situation was/is), so there is a good chance Vox didn't see the war coming either.

Mmm I guess the no-war-spread is somewhat esoteric knowledge, AFAIK the details have never actually been posted in a strategy thread (maybe at CFC... dunno), it's just something a few unusually enlightened players know or suspect...

Altough even if Vox did know/suspect, it seems they've made a number of weedy moves which suggests they aren't fully thinking things through. They might have been unable to resist the idea of infecting us with religion, so unable to resist that they wouldn't even consider that we'd be willing to take drastic measures to prevent it.

They shouldn't have baited us, though. Religion or no religion, a scout is just too valuable so early on. This time, it's Vox that treated a human team as a super-AI

Agreed. That scout move was just plain weedy.
It would make sense if they WANTED us to be at war, but they really have no advantage in a war. They're in a weaker position (terrain wise), they're using risky workforce allocation, they're unable to demonize us due to lack of contact - in the longer run we can demonize ourselves just fine by switching to Hinduism.
One thing they wouldn't nessecarily have known (altough could've suspected) is that we'd have some pent up resentment over them stealing Hinduism, which was no doubt a factor in our eagerness to dispatch the scout.


The historical interactions between Vox and GS was an interesting read. I'm not sure if it indicates that they are untrustworthy per-se, just that they are typical CIV players - oppurtunistic backstabbing bastards. It does make their play this game all the stranger - we've killed them before, so what makes them think we'll hesitate to do it again?

Being a pacifist weenie (seriously, ruthlessness is just optimal strategy) I do still feel compelled to give peace a chance. They have nothing to bargin with so we could (well, would have to) offer very magnanimous alliance/capitulation terms.
There are significant advantages to an alliance, primarly in research and expansion speed - there is of course the significant risk of "Civil war" which does not exist if we simply conquer them, personally I find the idea of the added intrigue and diplomatic tension of a forced alliance positively delightful.

I would support (altough not insist on) offering Vox a deal along these lines:

"Dear Vox, we have crunched the numbers and done the simulations, we have determined you have very little chance to survive a war between our two civilizations.
In the spirit of goodwill we are willing to give give you just one chance for peace, the terms are simple and generous:
1) Permament Open Borders and full "Right of Passage" for GS units through Vox territory, in return GS will accept the spread of Hinduism.
2) Full and fair tech trading, ultimately GS dictates the terms of particular tech trades, Vox refusal to trade a tech may lead to war.
3) Any diplomatic agreements between Vox and 3rd parties must be approved by GS.

We understand that your pride may prevent you from accepting these terms, in that case we wish you luck in the coming war. However again we warn you that this is an ultimation, once war is fully comitted to the Hawks of GS will settle only for the elimination of Vox."

I feel that when it comes to hard strategy we are better off eliminating Vox with no compunction, but offering them the option of capitulation may well prove more entertaining and is the more fair and honorable thing to do. The ideal time to make this offer (if we decide to) would be when our Skirmisher choke starts taking hold - but before they are too badly damaged by their own defensive effort. As I said earlier, I would certainly not insist on giving Vox the option of survival, but it's at least worth considering.

[vmxa1]

First we have so much to gain by taking them down that we really cannot consider peace. Second I do not seem being able to do anything for us and could not trust them, if they agreed.

Last we would still have that religion thing hanging over our heads.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Blake

The historical interactions between Vox and GS was an interesting read. I'm not sure if it indicates that they are untrustworthy per-se, just that they are typical CIV players - oppurtunistic backstabbing bastards. It does make their play this game all the stranger - we've killed them before, so what makes them think we'll hesitate to do it again?

It went a bit differently this time. Last game, we were generous in giving them a new life, or so we thought. In reality, it made Vox a puppet of Lego, allways second-hand and at most 5th in place (#4 being at least twice as big). I can only expect it was boring for them to continue playing.

Ourselves, we kind of had Roleplay as a vassal, 'rescuing' them from Bob and installing them on Vox' conquered land. And we even did a poor job on pulling most out of their reserves: with the Lego invasion, they were something like 3 turns too late to invade at the same time as us, simnply because we didn't coordinate it well enough. As a result, they didn't even see a Lego unit, as we had wiped them out already. Why did this happen? They got bored, uninterested, and we didn't really care for them either.

I think both the old GS and the old Vox would agree that a long term alliance doesn't work, unless the parties are about equal in size and decision power. Vasalage is maybe even worse.

There are only 2 options for the moment: either destroy them (now or later), or make peace on equal terms. So for me, for the moment, I think war is still the best option.

But let's see what happens over the next 20 turns. We are still 15 turns away from our first skirmisher arriving near Vox' capital. That's enough time to build a worker, discover BW, hook up bronze on a hill next to the city(on the river), and upgrade their warriors to axes. 3 axes in the next 20 turns might be a remote possibility, but they would seriously jeopardize our plans.

We understand that your pride may prevent you from accepting these terms, in that case we wish you luck in the coming war. However again we warn you that this is an ultimation, once war is fully comitted to the Hawks of GS will settle only for the elimination of Vox."

This kind of message is what got us in trouble a couple of years ago. Don't get me wrong, I very much agree with what you're saying, however this could be a PR nightmare. Beta would probably highlight certain words or sentences, delete some other, and send a commented upon message to all team leaders posing as an anonymous source

The thing is, if read with the wrong mindset, the text above can be considered extremely arrogant, in a 'we know better, now hear this' kind of way. You only have to add some commentary from an overzelous PR-guy, and all of a sudden everyone aims for the ringers.

The pace of the game only worsens everything: many teams get bored because they have to wait while other teams duke it out. So, they chat, and gossip, and somehow always get involved. Just a couple of turns can take a month, and during that time alliances can change (which is very quick in game). And somehow, all wars between neighbours turn into world wars with every team picking sides...

I'd value a strong friend. I doubt we've found them yet, though. So unless Vox pulls off a miracle (like getting a settler from a hut), Go for them!

DeepO

[Cort Haus]

DeepO, I think Beta is on Team Saratanium this time, so that's one problem less.

[vmxa1]

May be worth mentioning that the game took more than 2 YEARS.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
DeepO, I think Beta is on Team Saratanium this time, so that's one problem less.

I know, I was half-joking... the same could happen again, although I doubt it will ever become so fierce again. Certainly not with Vox, at least not so early on. It's a different game, with different rules this time.

DeepO

[notyoueither]

Woops. Wrong thread.