Chat Polls Discussion

[NicodaMax]

Eventually, snoopy is going to need an official GS vote on the 5 different issues being addressed in the public forum, and while we can all post our personal views there, we might want to give it some discussion in private also:
[list=1][*]Time Limits[*]Teleporting[*]GP Gifting[*]Fake Wars[*]City Gifting[/list=1]

Polls could come at a later time.

[alva]

1. 24 hours-ish (let's have some leniency, please. There's is such a thing a real life).
2. ???
3. Why not?
4. No
5. Not sure.

[Metaliturtle]

No teleporting, City gifting I view like GP trades, why not, otherwise I agree with Alva

[NicodaMax]

My views...
1. 24-48 hours should be plenty of time. If extensions are solicited they should be granted. If 72 hours pass without extension request skip the turn (it'll probably never get to that)...pretty much what was said in the chat

2. teleporting by cancelling Open Borders for the sole purpose of moving units is a no no. However, there are times when valid reasons to cancel OB will cause teleporting.

3. Yeah, why not.

4. Actually, I see nothing wrong with it, but I'll go with the majority (no so far).

5. Hell yeah. Very usefull it could be.

[Hot Mustard]

Re: Chat Polls Discussion
[list=1][*]Time Limits - I'm in favour of aggressive limits, but I sense I'm in the minority, so I'll just go with the crowd.[*]Teleporting - Boo![*]GP Gifting - No problem[*]Fake Wars - Boo![*]City Gifting - No problem[/list=1]

[Blake]

I believe the exploit in GP trading works like this, two teams work co-operatively, carefully planning tech paths and trading GP's to lightbulb optimal techs, basically bringing tech-trade whoring to the next level. This is more exploitive than merely trading/gifting techs, because the GP's can always go to the team that will lightbulb the best tech.
Collaboration of that level would be a problem in and of itself though....

[Metaliturtle]

I see what you're saying Blake, but do any of the teams have enough of a bond, (or desire to end the game quickly) to just whore up the tree and then kill everyone untill they have nobody to fight except each other?

It seems like every team's desire for fun should outweigh this though, and if it was discovered that 2 teams were doing this, it would seem no problem that other teams would realize it and combine doing the same thing to kill the original perps.

[Arrian]

I don't know if I really consider what Blakes describes as an exploit...

-Arrian

[NicodaMax]

While I find that level of collaboration unlikely, in the event that it does happen I wouldn't consider it illegal, just a major threat. The teams involved should be promptly targeted for elimination by all other teams ... unless, of course, if its us

[Arrian]

Yeah, that's how I see it.

-Arrian

[Aginor]

1. Time Limits - my recommendation would be for flexibility on this issue in general, with a firm policy in place for dispute procedures if someone starts dragging things out (ex: if it becomes a problem, any team can call a vote and vote of at least 4 of the other 6 teams puts that team 'on the clock'. Meaning that if they fail to forward any of the next 10-15 turns within 24 hours, their turn can then be skipped.) That way there can't be any fairness debates later on the subject, but at the same time everyone concerned admits that occasionally RL will happen.

2. Teleporting - since the general consensus in C4DG seems to be that this is an exploit, ban it. Policy probably should be that if a teleport gives a clear and decisive advantage the unit has to be deleted.

3. GP Gifting - always fair to trade these. What Blake describes isn't an exploit in and of itself; the collusion is another matter...but that's a diplo issue and should be treated as such (ie: it's legal but will have consequences in foreign relations).

4. Fake Wars - inappropriate in a friendly game, though you can make a diplo argument here as well.

5. City Gifting - I don't see that we should ban this given the details I have from the Civ 3 game. Vassals are again a diplo issue, and should be treated as such.

[Krill]

1. less than or equal to 48 hours
2. Should not be allowed,
3. Should not be allowed,
4. Abstain,
5. What nye posted.

[Krill]

To be perfectly frank, I can see GP trading becoming a sort of open market, but only in larger team games, when the market is large enough, and no one is playing to win. Here I think that FP has got it dead right, and that it will become a very unbalancing feature.

And as an aside, I would be OK if Merc wanted to change their civ because of this ruling, on the understanding that they can't pick civs that are already allocated, of course...

[notyoueither]

1. 24 hours. Lenient
2. No
3. No
4. No
5. Only to settle borders with a preexisting neighbour or due to results of war.

Summary of our positions to this point
1. Time Limits
alva: 24 hours-ish (let's have some leniency, please. There's is such a thing a real life).
Metaliturtle: agree with alva (24 hours with leniency)
NicodaMax: 24-48 hours should be plenty of time. If extensions are solicited they should be granted. If 72 hours pass without extension request skip the turn (it'll probably never get to that)...pretty much what was said in the chat.

dejon: I'm in favour of aggressive limits, but I sense I'm in the minority, so I'll just go with the crowd.
Aginor: Time Limits - my recommendation would be for flexibility on this issue in general, with a firm policy in place for dispute procedures if someone starts dragging things out (ex: if it becomes a problem, any team can call a vote and vote of at least 4 of the other 6 teams puts that team 'on the clock'. Meaning that if they fail to forward any of the next 10-15 turns within 24 hours, their turn can then be skipped.) That way there can't be any fairness debates later on the subject, but at the same time everyone concerned admits that occasionally RL will happen.

Krill: less than or equal to 48 hours
nye: 24 hours. Lenient
Master Zen: Abstain
asleepathewheel: 24 hr lenient

2. Teleporting
Metaliturtle: No
NicodaMax: teleporting by cancelling Open Borders for the sole purpose of moving units is a no no.
dejon: No (Boo!)
Aginor: Ban it
Krill: No
nye: what NicodaMax said
Master Zen: Hell no
asleepathewheel: No (as much fun as it was last game)

3. GP Gifting
alva: Why not?
Metaliturtle: No
NicodaMax: Undecided (abstain?)
dejon: No problem
Aginor: always fair to trade these
Krill: No
nye: No
Master Zen: I have no clue what this is. "Great People gifting"? I had no clue you could even do that...
asleepathewheel: No

4. Fake Wars
alva: No
NicodaMax: Yes, but No to promotion farming
dejon: No (Boo!)
Aginor: No (inappropriate in a friendly game, though you can make a diplo argument here as well)
nye: No
Master Zen: No type of promotion farming between allies should be permitted. I am however in favor of fake wars in the true sense of the word
asleepathewheel: Yes ... but I object to promotion farming

5. City Gifting
Metaliturtle: why not?
NicodaMax: Hell yeah, but limited to what nye said
dejon: No problem
Aginor: Yes (I don't see that we should ban this given the details I have from the Civ 3 game. Vassals are again a diplo issue, and should be treated as such)

Krill: No (What nye posted)
nye: Only to settle borders with a preexisting neighbour or due to results of war.
Master Zen: ... If city gifting is exploitative in nature then of course not. However, I do see circumstances in which city gifting should be allowed, say as war reparations or evening out borders... If gifting is used for some exploit of the game mechanics, then I'm totally against it.
asleepathewheel: Only to resolve border issues/treaties

[NicodaMax]

thanks for the summary nye
I haven't done much posting but I've been reading both here and on the public forum and...
with regards to city gifting, I tend to agree more with nye and krill. It should be limited.
gp gifting I'm still not sure about. I tend to agree with F-P's points on the public forum (same with nye and krill) but I'd hate to over react and ban an interesting possibility in the game (interesting as long as its not abused). Maybe no is the safest course...