KGB: opponents initial choices discussion

[Aginor]

The utility of religion lies primarily in informational advantage (spreading religion and building your the religion's shrine) in this environment and difficulty. If we can see 2 spaces around all of an adversary's cities, it becomes challenging for that adversary to engage in a major troop buildup without us knowing about it. The culture from Monasteries and Temples never hurt anyone, of course, but the big thing is information, with the major secondary consideration being income from the shrine.

While I usually love the BW first start, it doesn't make much sense for us unless we go Worker first, which I don't feel makes that much sense with the Mali. Fishing I see as a possibility in the right start, but chances are it's not happening.

Any other thoughts on BW first?

[Krill]

You know where Cu is, and you know if you have to research to IW at some point in the near future. And we know that at least one team is going to try a HA rush, so spears are going to be invaluable.

[Arrian]

Aginor,

I have zero faith (heh) in our ability to spread religion to another civ. We don't know for sure if O.B. will be shunned by teams. Even if they are, I doubt teams will want missionaries in their lands, so all you're left with is passive spread. And the shrine income. That's nice, but is it enough?

-Arrian

[Cort Haus]

Having our own religion installed in all cities would at least prevent the passive spread of any rival religions. If we have no religion then whoever has a shrine can catch our 'virgin' cities. Maintaining a cloak-of-faith will give any civ a defensive and offensive edge.

[Aginor]

Can civs really live without trade until Mercantilism?

With OB, religion spreads passively as well as actively. Civs choosing not to trade at all will disadvantage themselves significantly in the early game in research and commerce.

Anyone that wishes to play a fairly defensive game early on has to consider OB. Also, if there's a city near enough one of our borders to spread religion to once there's OB, we can always spread it and then use the 'we're sorry, we won't do it again' routine if missionary travel across adversary lands isn't expressly banned when an OB treaty is signed. Particularly early on, while our Skirmishers are still viable.

In addition, Cort Haus is right that the earlier we get our own religion spreading passively, the easier it will be to protect our own borders from getting 'infected'.

[Arrian]

I noted passive spread. And I agree that having our own religion will have value... just not as much value as in a normal SP game. By the way, passive spread does require O.B., right?

Further, we can get one of the later religions even if we forgo an early one.

Hey, I'm not totally against the early religion path, I'm just trying to work out how to value it...

-Arrian

[alva]

By the way, passive spread does require O.B., right?

Quite certain it doesn't.
In fact, IIRC it can even 'jump' to unknown civs.

[Solomwi]

Originally posted by alva

By the way, passive spread does require O.B., right?

Quite certain it doesn't.
In fact, IIRC it can even 'jump' to unknown civs.

It can, indeed, based on my SP experience. Another factor to consider is that there will be no automatic penalty for adopting an early religion. There may be some amount of roleplay that leads to the same effect (somebody with more MP experience than me please chime in here), but I highly doubt it, as most teams will overlook a religious difference if they think a good relationship with us can be beneficial to them.

[Blake]

Here's how religion spread works:
In order to spread passively, a connection (road, river, coast) is required to the Holy city. That's pretty much all that's needed.

Now, if we want to spread religion to nieghbours, we therfore need to make a connection, roads in neutral can be pillaged but we might be able to get an agreement to make a connecting road.
Sometimes a river will flow between civs, and since cities generally get founded on rivers they make great connections.
The most reliable way though would probably be sailing + scouting the coast. Note that a coastal city isn't needed, since rivers to the coast can do the trick (with a city on the river, or a road to the river).

So that's what we need to do if we want to infect other civs, or alternatively to avoid being infected. (there's not really much that can be done about the coastal connections).

[Metaliturtle]

Originally posted by Solomwi


It can, indeed, based on my SP experience. Another factor to consider is that there will be no automatic penalty for adopting an early religion. There may be some amount of roleplay that leads to the same effect (somebody with more MP experience than me please chime in here), but I highly doubt it, as most teams will overlook a religious difference if they think a good relationship with us can be beneficial to them.

It would be cool to be very fundamentalist in Diplomacy, saying things like, "The great and glorious Buddha declares yours to be an unenlightened people, give us or we will be forced to 'enlighten' you."

But you make an excellent point, there is no reason why any team would give us a religion penalty, chances are that each team would want their own religion though, nothing gets in the way of war like attacking your brothers of the cloth next door.

Edit: so could founding multiple religions be a viable way to cause a neighbor to not go to war with us?

[Arrian]

I stand corrected on O.B. vis-a-vis religion. Dunno why I thought that.

-Arrian

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Arrian
Hey, I'm not totally against the early religion path, I'm just trying to work out how to value it...

Sorry guys no time to fully debate this now, but early religion has major advantages for SPI civs, if they decide to go for the rel civic column fast (meaning Monotheism, Monarchy & Theology). E.g. with Org Rel, you've got the same effect as early forges everywhere, without the disadvantages of building time and health penalty. Early religions are the only way to capitalize on your advantages in that stage of the game, waiting for some religion to spread to us, or going for any of the later ones is far from ideal.

If the religious civics are not a focus point, and we decide to leave them and focus on about every other tech, an early religion does little more than give us some culture, some happy, and some gold. In itself not enough, but add a 25% hammer bonus, a 2XP bonus, or a 100% GP bonus and early religions are certainly worth the trouble.

DeepO

[NicodaMax]

I agree 99.95%

[Arrian]

Ah, yes, Organized Religion. The civic I often ignore in my games! @ myself.

So, Buddism or Hinduism?

-Arrian

[Krill]

Has anybody considered a beeline to alphabet? In this game, it could break things open. And alphabet is not that difficult to get via the oracle...