Smith's College - General Discussions

[Arrian]

This will be the general discussion thread for the Stormian economy.

Since the game will likely start soon, we might want to get some general ideas out there, so Dominae is fully ready to play the opening turns quickly.

Obviously, it's difficult to come up with a plan w/o seeing the start, but I think we can come up with "if this, then that" ideas.

For instance:

If we start and see a plains hill with fresh water access... shall we move? I'd say heck yeah. Production advantage *and* added defense.

If we start on the coast with seafood resources, shall we research fishing straightaway?

We clearly will be concerned with early defense, so worker first is most likely out... but what if we start on a penninsula (and it's obvious right away), so we only need to worry about 1 direction?

All things being equal, do we research bronze working first?

-Arrian

p.s. It is likely that we are the Mali, who start with Mining and the Wheel. BW would be available right off the bat, whereas AH would require research of hunting (or Agr) first. If we got our #2 choice, Qin, we'd start with Mining and Agriculture...

[Aginor]

Plains Hill - almost certainly unless it really screws us over on resources in the capital. It is probable that some civ is going to have to deal with an early elimination attempt, which makes it quite possible that the civ in question will be us.

I would think that Fishing and Work Boats will be a no brainer if we draw that sort of start. It's a much cheaper way of powering our economy (techwise and turnwise) than rushing to Pottery if we're Financial.

Bronze Working tends to make the most sense if we go Worker first or Warrior/Worker (the latter being a standard Flood Plains opening). If we are going to be cranking out units for a while initially, picking up something else before Bronze Working (Fishing, Agriculture, etc.) will make more sense.

[Arrian]

How about focusing on two things (the two things we really need to decide on turn one, beyond where to settle... which really requires seeing the land):

1) First build
2) Tech choice

1) I suspect the team will choose warrior first, with good reason. In many cases even in SP, it's a good call. But I'd like to see if anyone strongly disagrees (probably under a certain set of circumstances).

2) This is a little more difficult, since we don't know for sure that we're the Mali (likely, but no official announcement yet). The choices would be...

Fishing - highly situational. Only if on coast w/seafood.

Agriculture - maybe if we have corn/wheat/rice, but researching it first seems silly if we're not going worker first. If we don't have such resources close, it's a rather expensive way to get to AH.

Hunting - allows scouts, camps, leads to archery and animal husbandry (quicker than agriculture). I'd rate this one as fairly attractive.

Mysticism - we'll need it at some point, but if we're the Mali it's highly unlikely we will get an early religion (if none of the other civs start w/Myst... maybe we could). I don't see us making a play for Stonehenge...

Bronze Working - see where the copper is (or isn't!). That alone is really important. Allows slavery & chopping - also big. Can't do much with it until we have at least a worker, though, so again it might not be the first choice.

Is pottery available off the bat if you have the wheel? Or do you need a 2nd tech (fishing?)?

-Arrian

[Krill]

Pottery requires Fishing or Agri, which is why it has a higher rating, IMV, than hunting, unless we want to rush someone...

[Solomwi]

1) No qualms here with warrior first, unless of course we see a start that just screams for a different approach

2) My first instinct is BW as default, simply because the earlier we can locate copper, the earlier we can secure it. Fishing becomes a good play with a nice seafood start. If we're Mali, hunting may offer a bit of a strange benefit... allowing us to hold off archery and bluff being close to it.

Think about it from a potential attacker's perspective. You're deciding who to take out, or whether or not to hit GS. You see a GS scout or camp, telling you they have hunting. You now know that GS is one fairly cheap tech away from Skirmishers. Unless GS' start is just horrible commercially, you also know they have a pretty good tech pace. You're now faced with having to deliver a crippling blow immediately or throw your significant early investment up against the best city defender of the era. Being too easy to overplay, this isn't a huge benefit, but it is worth considering IMO.

[Aginor]

1) I can imagine a Worker first situation. If we find ourselves sitting next to something farmable and a mineable cash cow luxury (Gold, Silver), this screams for Ag and a Worker, since the delay in growth will be more than made up for by the farmed Corn/Wheat/etc. coming online quickly, and the research bonus from the Gold/Silver would power our early game.

That said, we're almost certainly going Warrior as our first build. In most games it's the right thing to do.

2) Have to agree that I would rate a move towards Hunting as a fundamentally aggressive move on our part towards Archery and our UU. It definitely would also have a deterrent effect, to be sure, but I would think that this is a tech we'd want to pick up post-Pottery. Knowing that we need Ag or Fishing to acquire Pottery, I'm thinking that our realistic options right off the bat are:

Fishing (if coastal)
BW (if we want Slavery due to heavy floodplains, or we are heavily forested and feel the need)
Ag (pretty much anything else...chances are we're going to scout out some farmable specials pretty darned quick, and we need Pottery ASAP)

Hunting IMO is probably something to go for post-Pottery, once we can research it swiftly. Mysticism just isn't going to be an option with Mansa...if we're getting a religion it will almost certainly be one of the later ones (CoL/Theo/Philo) if we're running as Mansa.

That discussion is turned completely on its head if we get Sally...we'll almost certainly want to make a Buddhism/Hinduism play in that case to deal with our shallower commerce base and also take best advantage of Philo.

[Arrian]

Gentlemen, our opponents:

Vox: Catherine (Cre/Fin. Hunting/Mining)
Mercs: Frederick (Cre/Phi. Hunting/Mining)
Sanatarium: Elizabeth (Fin/Phi. Fishing/Mining)
Horde: Kublai (Agg/Cre. Hunting/Wheel)
Banana: Louis (Cre/Ind. Agriculture/Wheel)
AC: Qin (Fin/Ind. Agriculture/Mining)

and us:

GS: Mansa Musa (SPI/FIN. Wheel/Mining)

Four CRE (!), four FIN, two PHI, two IND, one SPI (us), one AGG. Not one ORG choice, heh.

Note: NOBODY IN THIS GAME STARTS WITH MYSTICISM.

I always assumed that *somebody* would. Nope.
That brings up the question of whether, our start depending, a run at an early religion might be worthwhile.

-Arrian

p.s. It almost makes me wish we'd picked Asoka or something...

[Cort Haus]

If we have a good commerce tile or two, an early religion is very possible. The other FINs all have mining and will surely grab Bronze first.

An early religion may also be important now if we have CRE neighbours nicking all the land.

I think we still may have to see what land & specials we have before comitting to the Myticism path, but it looks a possibility.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
I think we still may have to see what land & specials we have before comitting to the Myticism path, but it looks a possibility.

I agree. A very good possibility too...

Considering our options, I say there is a very good chance we should go for a religion asap. That might be the first choice we've got to make when we see the starting pos: is it possible, or not? If so: go for it.

If we are first in turn order, I'd put us square to Budhism at any rate. Then, BW. Then worker techs (irr or AH). Then writing and so on...

We only have mining as a starting worker tech, which mean we can't do much with workers at first. The only way where going worker first is profitable in such scenario is if we've got a gold, or silver hill. As I suspect nobody is willing to risk a settler-first strat (I'm not), that only leaves a warrior to build...

The only other path I see is towards BW, which might be an option when plenty of forests are near. If so, we can chop e.g. Stonehenge, or a very early settler.

The last alternative is when we've got freak situations: starting near 3 seafood, or in the middle of 4 cows might lead us to go fishing, or AH first.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Arrian
Gentlemen, our opponents:

Vox: Catherine (Cre/Fin. Hunting/Mining)
Mercs: Frederick (Cre/Phi. Hunting/Mining)
Sanatarium: Elizabeth (Fin/Phi. Fishing/Mining)
Horde: Kublai (Agg/Cre. Hunting/Wheel)
Banana: Louis (Cre/Ind. Agriculture/Wheel)
AC: Qin (Fin/Ind. Agriculture/Mining)

and us:

GS: Mansa Musa (SPI/FIN. Wheel/Mining)

Four CRE (!), four FIN, two PHI, two IND, one SPI (us), one AGG. Not one ORG choice, heh.

Note: NOBODY IN THIS GAME STARTS WITH MYSTICISM.

I'll have a field day analyzing this, but not right now. Something for this weekend, this week is about the most stressing at work of the past year or so. I'll set up a thread if others want to comment, so please don't continue here too much... Smith's should be about how we plan to use the situation to the max, not on what the situation really is

DeepO

[Cort Haus]

When considering tile improvements, defensibility from pillaging should be a factor - particularly for cottages. So, if the most likely threat is from the north, southern tiles would be better for cottages, especially at the border. If we are attacked early the opponent would be most likely intending to pillage our economy, rather than face Skirms in cities.

[Aginor]

Economic warfare doesn't strike me as likely to earn sufficient returns in the earliest parts of the game in order to justify the hammer expense. I think that we can safely assume that if someone comes after us early on, their intent is to maim or kill. If you invested all those hammers in making a 200-300 hammer army, you'd want to get some sort of tangible return on it over and above a couple hundred gold from pillaging. Particularly when mere economic warfare is likely to earn you an enduring rival for the remainder of the game, which could develop into a serious long-term threat if not excised.

I agree that no sane adversary is going to want to face Skirmishers fortified in cities if there's an alternative...but I don't see an aggressor settling for economic warfare if there's an alternative (ie: another target in range without a potent Ancient UU). Should we find ourselves sharing a decent sized continent with the Horde or possibly Sarantium (if FP decides to go aggressive), this would alter the equation quite a bit.

Once we hit the period when Horse Archers (and particularly Keshiks for the Horde) become widely available, engaging in economic warfare would seem to make a bit more sense. HAs are quite a bit more durable than Chariots, yet are not prohibitively expensive. The potency of purely economic warfare is then likely to decline as the game progresses, as borders are settled and permanent defenses are raised. However, I would think that from the early Classical period through the Medieval era, economic warfare will be an extremely potent method of slowing the expansion of the opposition (and consequently reserving more land for oneself to expand into).

Now, as with any strategy game, certainly it makes sense to put our cities between our improvements and potential adversaries. No sense making engaging in economic warfare any easier for the other side than we have to.

The more interesting question to my mind is this: clearcut Forests on the border, prune them, or leave them as-is entirely? Chances are that we'll want our units holding resources rather than Forests, and that turns the Forests into a defensive liability. Particularly so if they are immediately adjacent to the city tile (as softening stacks from the city with Catapults, Horse Archers, Knights, etc. is much more effective without the Forests in place).

[NicodaMax]

I've tried, with mixed results I should say, the tactic of chopping forests around my cities except for 2 or 3 non adjacent tiles on the rim of the city radius (i.e. 2 tiles away) and facing towards the enemy. Stationing some skirmishers on those forests should deterr any attempt to pillage near our cities.

[Solomwi]

Aginor, one thing to keep in mind... the Horde attacked us (Desolation Row) in the C3CDG even though we had Immortals. Granted, that's not a defensive UU, but it's still a powerful one that sould serve as a considerable deterrent. I offer this not to suggest they'll choose us over an easier target, but only as evidence that they'll not be deterred solely by a good ancient era UU, if they think they can reap some benefit from it overall.

[Aginor]

I recognize that if we encounter the Horde, typical aggressor rules go out the window.

I don't doubt that if we're alone with the Horde, they'll come early and often. I also expect that, regardless of the number of opponents on their continent, they'll start sending Keshiks around to wreak economic havoc on as many neighbors as possible as soon as they have them.

What Skirmishers are good for is holding back Axes and Swords...losses become much higher when you have to attack Skirmishers to take a city. So I see the point of the Skirmishers as buying us some time by making it less worth the Horde's time to come pay us a visit before HAs if there are multiple civs on the continent.

If I recall correctly, Immortals in Civ 3 were a very strong early unit on the attack. Perhaps the Horde saw that as a 'do unto them before they do unto us' situation? Or perhaps not.

Also from memory, we should be able to identify Horses from tiles with mysterious pastures without a visible resource even if we do not have Animal Husbandry. This also speaks to getting some Scouts out there if we run into a probable HA rusher.