Rule Listing

[snoopy369]

At the request of several teams, I'm posting a summary of rules that have been decided upon, and my interpretation of some rules that were unclear.

There are a few other issues that might come up, and I'll include those here.

CONTACT

• No team may have game-related discussions with a team they have not met in game. This means you can click on their team name in-game and open the trade dialogue.
• Teams should not discuss their relations with a third team that has not contacted one of the teams. May teams discuss having contact with a third team but not mention the team's name?
• Teams may trade screenshots of their maps or any other in-game element upon contact. This has impact on the previous element; however, contact for purposes of this game is defined as in-game contact.
• Teams may not post in-game matters in a public forum until all teams have contact with all other teams.

IN GAME DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS

• The use of open border agreements, or the use of a declaration of war, for the purpose of teleporting units, is illegal. So, you may not cancel an open borders agreement, either via F4 or by declaring a false (or real!) war, for the primary purpose of using the game mechanics to move your units to a favorable position. To avoid running afoul of this rule, it is recommended to empty your units manually from lands with which you have an open borders agreement prior to cancelling that agreement or declaring war; this is not explicitly required, however, and if there is no gain to either team it is permitted. Please check with the admins if you're unsure of the situation.
• The use of a fake war for the purpose of mutually gaining experienced units, or for the purpose of razing a city no longer desired by its owner. This means, you may not diplomatically invite another team to declare war on you for the above illicit purposes. Certainly you can trick a team into razing a city you don't want, or into attacking you with poor units to train your units, but it must not be agreed upon by both teams. Fake wars for other purposes ARE permitted, and are not distinguished from actual wars by game rules. If you have any questions about a potential war, please consult the admins. However, the general rule is that they are permitted except for two very specific circumstances.
• The trading OR gifting of Great People, ie the units that are generated by Great People Points in cities, or that are generated by the acquisition of certain techs, is explicitly forbidden for any purpose.
• Trading of cities is not forbidden, as there was not a consensus on this topic, and it's permitted by default; however the players are reminded that this is a seroius hot button issue, and if you are considering trading cities for anything other than a peace treaty or border agreement, it is strongly recommended that you discuss it openly (if this is permitted by in-game contact) with all parties in the game prior to doing so, as otherwise you will likely make some enemies you might not expect to make.

PLAYING THE SAVE

• Teams have 24 hours to play the save from receipt. They are granted a 24 hour extension by default. Although there are no explicit penalties for breaking this time limit, the admins may choose to suggest penalties to the teams for repeat offenders. We all want the game to move... just post if you need more time than this, please.
• No player may play the save and take any irreversible action, ie moving a unit, ending the turn, initiating combat, declaring war, accepting a peace agreement, etc., unless it is the official action of the team. Any player who takes such an action where it is not the official action of the team shall recuse him/herself from discussions of that current save, and from any further discussions that might involve information gained from the action taken, until that action is no longer relevant to the game. I'd say 5 to 10 turns is a good timeframe for most issues; but for example, moving a unit one direction and finding another civ, while the team goes the other direction and doesn't find them, could persist for a longer period of time than that in effecting your play of the game. The easy way to avoid this, is to have one turnplayer for any given turn, allow that turnplayer to play the save, and nobody else opens the save unless they take the precise actions of the turnplayer.

The item(s) in RED are questions that aren't clear, and are up for discussion. Italics are my comments and interpretations. Regular text are what was agreed on by the teams pre-game.

[ChrisiusMaximus]

Teams may not post in-game matters in a public forum until all teams have contact with all other teams.

Im not sure what the point of this is, what if a team is isolated somewhere for a good portion of the game ?

To me this only seeks to dull the game, what difference does it make if two teams or three teams know one another post publicly ? as long as any posts made dont give away sensitive information then I see no reason to stifle public posting!

This is supposed to be a Democracy game, Democracies speak to one another all the time.

[snoopy369]

If you don't have contact with a team, you may not communicate game details with them.

Therefore, if any team doesn't have contact with another team, game details can't be discussed in the public forums, or that team would be in violation.

This is not a new idea, chrisius.

[ChrisiusMaximus]

Snoopy it is: written all teams have contact with all other teams !

That is literally meaning or saying no public posting until all teams in this game have made contact with all teams,

I was not disputing the no discussion until in game contact between any two teams, but I certainly find the fourth item in the contacts section in your top post to be either misleading ! or stifling ! you tell me which is it

[E_T]

Well, there are some things that are known, ingame, about someone who you haven't contacted as of yet, that can be discussed. Because everyone who has access to the save can see that.

So, you can discuss these things, as much as you wish.

Me, I would rather read Golden Bear's Stories. But for some reason, he took them down, because of some private objections to them. Why, I don't know, I like a good story.

E_T

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus
Snoopy it is: written all teams have contact with all other teams !

That is literally meaning or saying no public posting until all teams in this game have made contact with all teams,

I was not disputing the no discussion until in game contact between any two teams, but I certainly find the fourth item in the contacts section in your top post to be either misleading ! or stifling ! you tell me which is it

I'm not sure how this isn't clear to you, chrisius...

You may not post any game details in a public forum until all seven teams (or all remaining teams ) have contact with each other.

Of course, if it's something that's public knowledge, that isn't a problem... knowledge that a religion was discovered or some such, once all teams have played the turn in which it was discovered, is fine. But things that are commonly known by teams without contact are few and far between, so I preferred a more simple statement for those who aren't experienced DG players...

[Ljube]

I guess you got your answer Chris. It's stifling!


Snoopy, could you please explain to me what is the point of that rule? And who made it a rule?

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but that rule in my interpretation prohibits any posting in the public forum.

One more question. What happens if I post something I think I’m allowed to, but you later decide that it was against the rule?

[Ljube]

Re: Rule Listing

Or in other words, what is the reason for these two rules?

Originally posted by snoopy369

Teams should not discuss their relations with a third team that has not contacted one of the teams.


Teams may not post in-game matters in a public forum until all teams have contact with all other teams.

Obviously, these two rules will prevent me from posting, and not only me - everybody.

[Kloreep]

I agree the first rule you cite is pretty restrictive. Far more so than I ever recall contact rules being in other DGs.

As for the second, I agree it's somewhat prohibitive, but it's a natural extension of the rule that teams may not contact each other until they have contact in game. If in-game matters could be discussed on the board, then that rule would mean nothing to unconnected teams who were willing to have their discussions made public. Note the phrase "in-game" though; you can post about where the save's at or even post general roleplay about the start of civilization, you just can't discuss specific matters from the save itself.

[Ljube]

Yes, but then I can't post anything about an ongoing war for instance. I can't post if we won a battle or lost it, what the casualties on both sides were, if we took a city or failed to do it, if we lost a city or successfully defended it, if the two sides were treacherous or true to their word.

All these things that naturally go into the public forum are now prohibited. And for what reason? No other than "a natural extension of the rule that teams may not contact each other until they have contact in game". I think that this justification is inadequate particularly in that it tries to defend a rule that limits the right of participants in a demo game to voice their views and opinions about the ongoing game. Furthermore I disagree that the rule is "a natural extension of the rule that teams may not contact each other until they have contact in game", because I would never contact somebody with whom I have no contact in-game (what would be the point of that?), but I would always like to post about developments and achievements of my civilisations which I am now forbidden to do.

[snoopy369]

Both of those rules were in place for C3CDG, and were in my understanding things that were agreed upon prior to this game in the limited posting made on any rules, by anyone.

Basically it comes down to, I was asked to make a post that delineated the rules of this democracy game, and reasonably so; as new players need to be able to know the rules they're potentially breaking. However, the teams as a group didn't end up with a particularly clear set of rules in certain aspects, and I was required to interpret to the best of my ability these rules, between interpreting things people said in posts, and past DG rules (as the consensus had tended to be "past games rules are fine").

I'd ask, if this was such a problem, why you didn't post on it sooner? Only chrisius - of all the players in the game - posted when I asked, over a week ago. That sounds to me like people either agreed with them, or didn't care enough to post. That was the original problem


Anyway...

The first rule, not discussing third teams without both teams having contact, i wasn't as sure about, and if it's a consensus of the teams we won't play by it; i've seen TWO TEAMS post here, though, so there's no consensus yet. To me it is a natural extension of "you need in game contact before having out of game contact"; if one team has contact with a second team, but not with a third team, the second team shouldn't be discussing a team that the first team can't discuss themselves yet.

The second rule is much more obvious, and certainly was the rule for every DG i've been a part of. "No posting about in-game matters in the public forum until all teams have met." Perhaps you don't understand the rule? It's a fairly obvious extension of the abovementioned "no out of game contact until in-game contact". If one team hasn't contacted a second team, but then posts about their game situation, ie where on the map they are, what tech they're going for, whatever; then that means you have just posted something that you were not permitted to communicate to the second team.

Basically, posting in the public forum is akin to sending a PM to each team in the game; so you can't do that until you are permitted to actually send a PM to each team in the game.

[Ljube]

In other words, no posting. Congratulations snoopy!

[Ljube]

Originally posted by snoopy369
I'd ask, if this was such a problem, why you didn't post on it sooner? Only chrisius - of all the players in the game - posted when I asked, over a week ago. That sounds to me like people either agreed with them, or didn't care enough to post. That was the original problem

Or they abide by your decree to forbid all posting except dull posts about which team has the save and why they haven't played the save already.

[Ljube]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Both of those rules were in place for C3CDG, and were in my understanding things that were agreed upon prior to this game in the limited posting made on any rules, by anyone.

C3CDG was a small pangea. This map is continents. It may take a while (possibly a year or two with the slow pace of the game) until posting restrictions are lifted. By then we may lose many players who are in this game for demo gaming, team-play, but also for some role-playing.

[Ljube]

One more question snoopy. Are you behind Golden Bear's deletion of a good part of his chronicles? Are you the one who asked him to do it?