MiniMap Trading

[Jon Miller]

It was discussed in PtW. I don't remember whether it happened or not (I know that Vox refused).

I don't think that it should be legal. I think that only agreements that can be done using in game tools should be allowed.

JM

[Wittlich]

You are correct Jon. In the PtW game, MiniMap Trading was voted down since it can be construed as a "cheat." I believe the same policy should hold true for this game. If teams want to trade maps, then the teams need the required tech for it. Period.

[PLATO]

I totally agree with Wittlich.

[snoopy369]

In Civ4, iirc, the required tech is generally earlier in the tech tree.

[Krill]

the required tech is paper, and that is not an early tech. It is a medeaval tech, and it takes a hell of a long time to reach. Equivalent of having map trades at Navigation in C3C

[PJayTycy]

Why not allow it?

I'd say:

before in-game contact => no outside-the-game contact either (ie: you don't even know the others are playing)

after you've got in-game contact => do whatever you want diplomacy wise. Wheter it's possible in the game mechanics or not, it doesn't matter.

[Addled Platypus]

in the corener of Wittlich

[Fried-Psitalon]

I also concur; map trading and going for paper early is a choice. You make that choice, you reap the benefits. If not... you don't.

[UnOrthOdOx]

With the way the minimap works in Civ IV, I'm not too awfull sure what you would even GAIN from mini-map trading, actually.

In Civ III, it was a means to meet each other quicker in-game. Since Civ IV does not center the mini-map,without stonehenge or calendar, it would not help you in the same manner as calendar is fairly late, and stonehenge only benefits the one possessing it.

So, IMO, it's not an issue as the reasons for doing it have been removed in the first place.

[Krill]

We should be allowed to share screenshots of the ingame map though. Otherwise it is going to almost imposible to make border treaties, for example. Just look at the first round of the C3C ISDG...

[Jon Miller]

errr... Iif allowed for that purpose, should only be able to show (For the border treaties) what the other person can already see...

that would take involvement from the game official...

Jon Miller
(we should play by the rules of the game)

[Krill]

Well, first of all, if we can't share screenshots, then we have to disallow the use of co-odinates to direct teams. If I can share the co-ordinates of where everysingle tile I can see with another team, they can make a map of the land I have explored. As you want to disallow the sharing of maps, we have to get rid of the co-odinate trading.

---

The last demogame that played by the exact same rules as the SP game had severe difficulties working out border treaties et al because they could not share screenshots. How are we even supposed to discuss border treaties? Or military plans if 2 teams ally?

Not allowing map trades decreases the amount of diplomacy available in game in the early stages of the game, and without diplomacy, a demogame is just another PBEM, which is lucky enough to have its' own private forum.

[Jon Miller]

I disagree...

there is a certain ammount of information confusion which is, and should be, a disadvantage to civs who don't go towards paper

as such, they should ahve to go and refer to points

if you want to spend the effort discribing everything in detail.. go ahead (that is an oral communication, and for all the person you are descring to knows.. you have just entirely made it up)

I want to play Civ4, not some other game...

Jon Miller

[PJayTycy]

mweh, and who will controll all of this?

Even if their own team doesn't know it, 2 turnplayers can always share screenshots in private.

In Civ III, it was a means to meet each other quicker in-game.

Well, we should disallow any communication before 2 civs meet each other in game, so this is a non-issue.

there is a certain ammount of information confusion which is, and should be, a disadvantage to civs who don't go towards paper. if you want to spend the effort discribing everything in detail.. go ahead

Well, if you allow to talk about everything, then why not sharing screenshots??

I want to play Civ4, not some other game...

What would make the game so different if we allow screenshot sharing ? Game-wise, it's all the same to me:

=> say to somebody : "there are horses on co-ords x,y"
=> say to somebody : "we're on the south pole, no need to explore in this direction, go north."

It all seems like info that is legal to "tell" someone, but screenshots are so much easier for it. This rule would just forces both sides to do more work to get the message accros.

The best argument I've seen against screenshots, is that the others don't know if you're telling the (whole) truth. But, with screenshots they can't be 100% sure either, you can just open the worldbuilder to fake a screenshot.



Jon, can you give a specific example of information that can be transmitted with screenshots but can't be told to the others (if enough time is invested). ?

[Krill]

if you want to spend the effort discribing everything in detail.. go ahead (that is an oral communication, and for all the person you are descring to knows.. you have just entirely made it up)

Thanks. That means that I can still send the exact same infomation without having to research towards paper. Thanks for giving me a loophole to exploit.

Paper comes about midway into the tech tree. It is not an early tech, unless you beeline for it and ignore other techs that will keep you alive. Diplomacy starts from the very beginning. There will be the need to work out border treaties Jon. And I am saying that it has literally been a nightmare trying to sort them out without screenshots. I am saying this from experience

And I can just as easily make up a map in the World builder to lie to people that way if need be.

There is a certain ammount of information confusion which is, and should be, a disadvantage to civs who don't go towards paper

Gameplay trumps realism every single time, especially in a competitive environment. The game is very well balanced for SP, and MP (if it goes the distance and is not decided by score... ).

I want to play Civ4, not some other game...

And bringing map making forward to another tech, or allowing it outright, does not fundamentally brake CIV.

edit: what Pjaytycy said.