Civ IV in Malaysia - Problem with Piracy

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by General Ludd


Or even better... just download it and save on the 1.50$ (never mind the ridiculous costs of ordering it form amazon)

Um ... Ludd, that's frankly an offensive post in a thread asking how to get a legal copy of the game when he's faced with massive piracy.

Although I realize I'm in the far minority here at this site, or at least the less vocal side, Piracy to me is abhorrent and wrong. Someone posting a thread asking how to legally get a copy of the game is good, and posting a suggestion for that person to pirate the game is blatantly insulting and wrong. Frankly if I were a mod i'd have banned you for a week for that comment alone ... be glad i'm not one.

[Adm.Naismith]

(OT) Piracy a minor problem

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner
Actually this is a big problem in a lot of places.

Ehrr, is this a *big problem* for you?
I'm sure that we can face more relevant (social, political, etc.) *big problem* than media piracy...

Moderators, I'm not saying I'm in favor or against media piracy (game, movies, songs): indeed that's not my post subject.

I'm only sure that the lobbies voicing about copyrights & money are doing a very strong effort to nail in our minds that their are poor victims of an international emergency: well, not.

[Shogun Gunner]

Go ahead a rationalize stealing all you want. People stealing software, which is not a necessity, is just odd to me.

You don't want to pay for a software game, then don't get it.

I work in the computer industry and have an understanding how this can hurt individuals and companies. Its interesting to me how some people won't shoplift a two dollar candy bar, but think nothing of stealing hundreds and thousands of dollars worth of software and intellectual property.

My country, USA, is a leader in software development. When individuals hack, steal software, it hurts my countries economy. Just as property rights were fundamentally important to growth of industrial nations, intellectual property rights are just as fundamental to the growth of information age economies.

So yes, it's a big problem. And yes, I don't like it.

[Adm.Naismith]

(OT) last time, I promise.

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner
Go ahead a rationalize stealing all you want. People stealing software, which is not a necessity, is just odd to me.

Sorry, as I said I'm not for piracy. I buy my software & game, if I need it, or simply live with opensource, freeware, or some trial if I just need to use it once in a while.
I'm not speaking about organized, industrial piracy for reselling, but about the personal use of copied digital content (software, movie, music).

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner
I work in the computer industry and have an understanding how this can hurt individuals and companies. Its interesting to me how some people won't shoplift a two dollar candy bar, but think nothing of stealing hundreds and thousands of dollars worth of software and intellectual property.

I work in the same industry, and I simply put some things in a different perspective. The old abused match between shoplifting a phisical object and copy a digital object is not correct: in the phisical word the producer buy raw goods and tools, add his works, and sell it the good itself (if you steal it, nothing is left to the original owner).

In a digital word you don't need raw goods, still pay for tools and add works, but if someone copy the media you still have the original. Of course that person is not paying you, *but* he's not necessary someone who would buy the product anyway. We know how common is the "collection" impulse: pirating a thousand music CD for himself is silly, and a bit of a "need for medication" side, still the musical industry is not suffering a loss of 20$*1000=20,000$ because in a perfect world that pirate cannot spend that amount of money anyway. There are honest industry statistic and there are unrealistic scenery of loss that lobbies are ready to show, but we should check carefully, IMHO. I have read a nice research on a Computer magazine a few months ago, made reading economics results of companies that show a different facet than that used on popular media.
I'm looking for an on-line abstract of it, just for reference, but I don't have the magazine available today, so I'll post ASAP.

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner
My country, USA, is a leader in software development. When individuals hack, steal software, it hurts my countries economy.

Sorry, that's a myth. Very well fitted with patriotic feeling, but I'm afraid the latter has more noble origin.
Microsoft is one of the most pirated company in the world, AFAIK, but it seems in a very good shape to me, and that's true from far early than recent hunting for (personal use) pirates enforced and squeezed a few dollars more.

In fact a mix of features and "accepted" early piracy is well know as a practice that made possible a quick market monopoly, where local competitors and international companies lost against unfair practice: so yes, piracy can be a tool for smart companies, but not as you suggest.

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner
Just as property rights were fundamentally important to growth of industrial nations, intellectual property rights are just as fundamental to the growth of information age economies.

Property rights where not the same of "copyrights", and while debating about the former is like a minefield ready to explode (hint: I am not a communist, thanks), I announce you that for centuries your and most of the world countries did a very nice job *whitout* any needs of a century long *copyright*.
In fact, just to mention a common example, the Walt Disney Movies of Cinderella, Little Mermaid and so on, are nice done works based "free of charge" on others countries fantasy novel no more covered by copyrights.
I'm against Walt Disney Company? Hell no! Still I find amusing that the same company moved lobbist to obtain an extension on USA copyrights to protect Mickey Mouse character...

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner
So yes, it's a big problem. And yes, I don't like it.

Sorry, IMO it's still a minor trouble, or an opportunity for a different business model: in a world of pirated music Apple has showed you can take the bull by horns and win, using immagination, a honest and competitive price, a well client-oriented offering.

Now I understand I'm going off topic way too much, so I think it will be fair to let you reply here with your (respected) opinion but put a brake on myself voicing in this thread.
You are welcome on my private mail, if you like.

I'd only reserve to edit my post for adding link abstract to facts and figures about industry and piracy, if you agree.

[Shogun Gunner]

I will agree with one thing you state. Companies seeking damages claim the largest damages when in reality they would never sell all the software that was stolen. Yes the monetary claims are very incorrect and the RIAA is ridiculous. Personally, I hate that organization and their tactics.

Your example of the stolen object not really being gone because it is virtual is silly. Someone acquired something for free where others paid for it. Call it what you will, that is still theft and that's hardly fair to those who paid for the software. Are these people starving to death because they can't get Microsoft XP for free when they have Windows 2000. Please. If you don't like the price the company is selling the software for then don't get it. Simple. No rationalizing theft, please.

I don't understand you argument against intellectual property at all. I'm not saying the laws are perfect, but the authors of creative content and software development are entitled to control their work. Plain and simple. If you destroy the incentive for people to profit from their work, you destroy the motivation of most people to do it in the first place.

Just because Microsoft is "doing okay" right now, is not the measurement on whether there is a problem or not. In fact, it is the smaller entities and individuals that are suffering because the do not have the legal resources M$ has.

I agree that a different model for content is necessary. However, that doesn't give anyone carte blanche to take software just because they want to.

It seems we agree on more points that I thought we would.

Edit: Oh, I just read in your message that we can discuss this via PM....perhaps this is not of great interest to many of the posters. That's cool.

[VetLegion]

Your example of the stolen object not really being gone because it is virtual is silly. Someone acquired something for free where others paid for it. Call it what you will, that is still theft and that's hardly fair to those who paid for the software.

What if I pay for fresh air, does it mean you have too, to be fair to me?

[JonahFalcon]

If anyone wants Civ IV boxed game, legal and bought straight from the shelf, email me at jonahfalcon1970@aol.com. I'll buy it for them then ship it. It's $54.11 USD including tax, then whatever the shipping I'd have to pay would be.

[Targonis]

On piracy and it's effects

There are always discussions going on at game release about pirated versions and how people on both sides view the subject. Here's my thoughts....

To develop any product takes money. Keep that in mind because it comes into play in any discussion about software piracy.

Most teenagers and many people not quite established in their careers don't have a lot of money. As a result, for those who tend to be honest, if there is a debate about buying food or buying a game, food should ALWAYS win out. If you are that tight on money, of COURSE it will be tempting to download an illegal copy. Keep in mind that people in this situation may never buy the product legally until it's in the bargain bin. But, it's one reason why some people may do it. Note that software titles that cost $250 or more have a bigger issue since if the program isn't going to be used for business, $250 or more is a LOT of money to spend on something you might only tinker with, but that's a bit off the topic of Civ 4.

So, you have the people who go out to buy the game, either because they have the money, decide to go hungry, or whatever. These people feel they are spending their money on something that should be good. In some cases, you get something and find out quickly that it's junk. It may be because it doesn't run properly on your computer, or because the graphics are bad, or whatever. These people feel they have been hurt by spending money on something that isn't good. Or people have been hurt this way before so don't have confidence in the developer. This is the case where a try before you buy would be welcome, but since that's often not an option for people(they don't have friends who have bought the game), some people might download an illegal copy to test it out.

It is at that point that you get a real split in opinions or attitudes. The more honest people will then go out and buy the game they illegally downloaded because it was good, or even those who tried the game, decided they didn't like it and deleted it. Most people won't fault people who fall into this category, though some might say that these people have still done something wrong.

Those who I and most "honest" people disagree with are those who download a game and never pay for it, even if they love it and have the ability to pay for it.

Now, back to what I said at the beginning of this post. A company that makes a good game can be KILLED because people pirate a copy, love it, but never spend the money to buy it in the store, or wait until it goes in the bargain bin years later. Basically, they lose money on the development costs. The key to the survival of game developers and publishers is to always at LEAST break even on the sale of a game title. If there are a million sold, then it won't be a huge issue if SOME people have an illegal copy. If you only have 20,000 sold legally but you have 10,000 illegal versions out there, that's the sort of thing that makes piracy a very bad thing.

This thread started with a good cry for help from someone who is honest and believes in supporting a game developer by buying the product legally. I fully support this attempt, but I'm afraid that there isn't much I can do personally besides checking with software vendors in other countries. Over in East Asia, checking with vendors in Australia, or perhaps Japan(I don't know how honest the companies there are) may be your best bet. Europe has a good number of places to buy from legally so there shouldn't be a problem. I don't know enough about the markets in the rest of the world to be able to suggest where to buy a copy, but you get the idea.

If you are limited to retail, I'm afraid there isn't much I can suggest. In the USA, people without a credit card can get debit cards that work off their bank accounts, and you can even find real credit cards that let you pay up front to establish a card and it then works like a debit card where your limit is how much you have deposited. I remember seeing applications for American Express cards with that sort of approach, so there are probably others.

I hope this helps put things in perspective.