Diplomacy: Templars

[Donovan Zoi]

In 275 BC, we met the Templars. Trade negotiations are underway.

[AutomatedTeller]

Did you go away again, Donovan? email me at cschwe@comcast.net if you are still interested in playing I'll try to keep it going for awhile...

[Donovan Zoi]

I have been playing every turn and working some major diplomacy. I have it under control.

I haven't been posting anything here because no one was here. If you are going to be around, then I can get you up to speed. But please do not make any moves in-game until we discuss it first.

Thanks.

[AutomatedTeller]

I took a look at the game - didn't change anything. I'll read the emails, as well.

Then I'll post my thoughts and you can tell me where I'm wrong

[Krill]

Do you guys have a team email address?

[Donovan Zoi]

Yes, it is btsbanana@yahoo.com

[Donovan Zoi]

The following is a documentation of all available correspondence between ourselves and the members of the Knight's Templar, a team that Banana just happened to meet on my first or second turn at the reins. Though our relationship was short, it seemed to start on good footing.

And it all started with a boat sighting off of our western shore:

[Donovan Zoi]

Curator's note: Don't get too used to these screenshots BTW.

[Donovan Zoi]

Seeing this ship, I promptly sent an in-game message through the diplo screen. Within a few hours, I got PM's here at Poly from two different Templars members:

1/28/09 - from Hercules

Hi Donovan,

I realise you are new member to team Banana .

My query on behalf of the Templars is this: we now have in game contact with your team and want to trade, but we are not sure how that contact was made.

Could you confirm that we have made contact and that it is not just a bug resulting from past game resets.

We noticed some turns ago a trade relationship established with yourselves inspite of no visual contact.

So you may have a number of exploring workboats out there, that met with us and then moved on.

1/28/09 - from Aidun

The Templars Contact you
Hello Donovan Zoi and other members of Team Banana,

The holy order of the Knights Templar greets you. We have received a message in game that we have met you, hence this message.

The Templars would like to establish warm and friendly relations with your team to the benefit of both our teams. We look forward to extensive cooperation with your team.

In order to show our good intentions and to provide you with an opportunity for trade, we offer you to trade Alphabet to us in exchange for one or a combination of the following techs: Monotheism, Priesthood and Metal Casting.

We realize that such a tech trade would at the moment not be balanced, so we suggest that one of our teams will compensate the other in a more favorable tech deal next time around. To that end we hope we can set up a tech trading scheme with your team to profit as much as we can from tech exchanges.

We hope we do not overwhelm you with this offer for cooperation. If there is anything else, do not hesitate to contact us.

Do you or your team (preferably) have an email address where we can contact you? Ours is templars.btsdg@gmail.com .

One last point: how would you like to be addressed? Bananians, Banana's or something different?

Best,

Aidun

[Donovan Zoi]

My reply. Things are starting off nicely, no?

1/28/09

Honorable Members of the Knights Templar,

Thank you for your quick and cordial response to our in-game request to enter discussions. I received separate PMs from both Hercules and Aidun and will do my best to answer the inquiries from both.

First, I was asked by Hercules to confirm that our meeting was valid, and it is. One of our sentried Archers caught sight of your Workboat just off the western shore of wherever it is we are. I can also attest to the fact that the Templars were not present on my FA screen as of last turn.

In regards to Aidun's message, we at Team Banana are pleased at the prospect of a trading strategy that may allow our teams to scale the tech ladder faster than each of us are currently. In fact, you will find a pending trade from us (not sure if you will see it this turn or next; I am new to pitboss) where we offer Alphabet and Fish for Metal Casting. That coincidence alone shows that we are on the same page; we threw in the Fish in the interest of an even trade due to the difference in research costs. Of course, we are open to negotiation if you would like to tweak this deal.

Also, as a show of goodwill on our part, we have begun to research Mathematics. Shall we work out our trade strategy now, while we save ourselves some espionage points?

Long story short, Team Banana is not overwhelmed in the slightest at your eagerness for cooperation. I don't think I would be showing my hand by stating that Bananian leadership has been a revolving door at best for quite some time; that can be seen by anyone that bothers to keep tabs on the logins at Civstats.com. However, I have pledged to stay aboard to right this ship ASAP, and a solid trading partner would help matters immensely. If you are interested in further strategic plans, I would be interested in what your team has in mind along those lines as well.

Lastly, the email address is as you see it in the 'from' box: btsbanana@yahoo.com . And for the time being, you can address us as Donovan. I am running the show alone at the moment, although I intend to recruit some advisors shortly. Once they and the wayward founders have arrived home, I guess you can call us the Bananas.

I (we?) look forward to future cooperation with your team and hope to hear from you soon regarding our impending trade. Please feel free to message us (me) at the yahoo email whenever it suits you.

Respectfully,
Donovan Zoi

[Donovan Zoi]

WARNING: Aidun moments ahead -- next few posts!

While this will probably tickle the hell out of the Realms Team, I actually found Aidun to be a pretty nice guy. And since our dealings with the Templars were pretty neutral throughout, he's not really a source of derision or humor for me at all. But, I promised full disclosure:

1/29/09

Hey Donovan,

Such a coincidence that we have proposed trade at the same time. My
team agrees with the deal you have proposed, Alphabet and fishes for
Metal Casting.

Now future trade. We have no formal alliance yet. While in principle
we exchange techs with every team, tech trading arrangements we
usually only set up within some kind of an alliance, because it
involves disclosing what tech we research. However, with a war taking
place on your island and with us knowing little of what is exactly
happening on your island, we are hesistant to propose an alliance at
this moment. So normally, we would not disclose what tech(s) we
research. However, you showed very good intentions.

Before we met, my team has felt that Team Banana has had some serious
bad luck in the past. You stepped in and had to take over a team that
was not originally yours, not an easy thing to do. You inherit a
situation with many complexities on a continent involved in a total
war. Still we are grateful that you stepped in, because that allows
the game continue. We imagine that in such a situation it is a welcome
gift to establish relations with a friendly team that could lend you a
helping hand. At least, to us it would seem that way. Some of our
members have in a previous game actually been in a similar situation
as your team is in and have also received a helping hand from friends,
so that those of us could continue to have fun. For us, we are here to
have fun and we think everyone should have fun, your team as well
despite its difficult position. Reading your last letter, we think we
re on the same page there.

Taken together, we will make an exception to our rule and share with
you what tech we are researching, although this information is
sensitive and of great use to our opponents and enemies. Of course
this information must remain completely confidential and disclosed to
nobody, neither friend nor foe, not even our allies. We trust you on
that because of the good intentions you showed.

Now about the future research. We are of course also trading techs
with other teams. We feel that we should inform you that we will
acquire Mathematics this turn by trade, so if you intended to research
it in order to trade with us, that will unfortunately not be possible,
but we very much appreciate your intentions and effort in that
respect. There are a few techs, however, which we would be interested
in and which should be relatively easy to research: Aesthetics and
Compass. If you would be interested in researching those, that would
work for us trade wise. We are currently researching Machinery, so we
could exchange these techs in a balanced deal. We are of course open
to other suggestions as well, but we deem this alternative the most
realistic one. If you prefer to research maths, that is fine with us
as well, but we won't be able to trade techs for a while then.

Now something else. We have little clue of what is going on. From time
to time we catch some rumours about what happens on your island, we
can see some score and curve rises and falls. We know that a war is
going on, but it is difficult to tell how the two sides in that war
are doing. Are you currently involved in that war? Are you on one side
or are you a neutral outsider? If you feel you should not exchange
such info with us, you don't have to, but we are very curious abour
the events at your island.

We hope we can set up a fruitful tech trading arrangement and that the
future will bring us both more good.

Best regards,

Aidun

1/30/09

Aidun,

Thank you loosening your guidelines somewhat in order to work with us. You have my solemn word that any information you provide me will not be disclosed to anyone. Following your suggestion, I have switched research to Compass.

Regarding your inquiry about the status of our island (is it really?) , I feel that I can state the obvious and that PAL is still at war with the Rabbits. Team Banana is neutral in this event, and I do not see any reason to enter the conflict in our current state.

I am hesisant to provide more information (though it's mostly small potatoes) at this time for several reasons, mostly due to our uncertainty about your relationship with PAL. Since my predecessors had been pursuing an NAP with PAL before they vanished, I still think it will be on the table for me to negotiate. I don't really think I am in a position to mess up that opportunity by telling you something they may not want you to know.

I guess the issue I am grappling with is the fact that you have Open Borders and what seem (at first glance) to be robust trade relations with PAL, and you have not been able to secure this information from them directly. Is there any way you can silence my inner skeptic and enlighten me on your relationship with our neighbor? I'd like to know that I can talk openly with you without fear of reprisal from our mutual contact.

Lastly, is there anything you can tell me about the state of affairs on your side of the world? Have you made contact with Imperio or the Realms team? From how far have you traveled to reach us? Do you share borders with any other teams? Any extra info would be helpful to me, but only divulge what you are comfortable with.

That's all for now, and I am sorry if you feel my tone has changed. It really hasn't, but I know enough to realize that these are questions that must be asked.

Respectfully,
Donovan Zoi

[Donovan Zoi]

2/3/09

Hey Donovan,

Congratulations! Such great leaders can be a welcome present in some
cases. I will respond to your last email and your PM at the same time.
Don´t worry about the tone, I understand your situation and I would
have been cautious too.

Yes, you are situated on a large island. We don´t know how large, but
likely the same size as ours. We are actually not far away from you,
but because of the fierce, but so far peaceful competition on our
island, a boat was not a priority for us for a long time. We have,
however, had contact with PAL since the start of this game. PAL is in
a very central position, this has allowed them to trade with civs on
both islands and they have profited immensely from this and continue
to do so. Therefore we built a boat, to reduce this unhealthy monopoly
of PAL.

We have had good relations with PAL, however, although nothing
special. We occasionally trade techs when it is useful. It has been
PAL´s strategy to ´divide and rule´ with respect to our island. This
is the reason why we have no special relationship with PAL, no team on
our island really does. PAL´s trade monopoly is crumbling now and on
the diplomatic front we are making some progress as well. You will
learn, however, if you haven´t alrerady done so, that PAL´s members
are no talkers, so they limit their diplomacy to the bare minimum. In
each message literally not a word too many.

I hope I have been able to enlighten your inner sceptic this way.
There is no other relevant info I can provide. I hope this info will
be enough for you. The more we know about your continent, the easier
it will be to intensify our cooperation, something we would look
greatly forward to.

Now about trade prospects. Of course we are very interested in
Machinery. We would like to trade it, but unfortunately we only have
Monotheism and Priesthood to offer you. We are, however considering to
switch to Construction, Calendar or Theology, we are discussing with
our other tech trade partners how we could set up a deal on this. That
includes PAL. Currently we have a deal with PAL to trade Machinery for
Civil Service. If you are willing to take over that deal, we would be
fine with that if you would be willing to trade Machinery to us. So
that would get you Civil Service and us Machinery. I suggets that in
exchange for Machinery we offer you the two techs we can offer you
plus one other tech which I will inform you about soon.

Best,

Aidun

Hi Donovan,

We will go for Theology if we can get Machinery from you. We have
informed PAL that another team has researched Machinery and we plan to
trade with that team and that PAL can better seek a deal with that
team. We are waiting for PAL's response. You would best propose a tech
trade with PAL now. Don't tell them anything about us though.

Best,

Aidun

Done deal. I sent the trade to you via Diplomacy Screen. Feel free to take Machinery now, and get Theology to me when it is complete. BTW, how many turns will it take for you to research?

Now to respond to your other email.......

[Donovan Zoi]

Oh, Donovan...so quick to trust. I was invested in the game for about a week, so may as well swing for the fences now....

If there's anything I would like to see from the Templar's locked forum, it would be the discussion of the following passages:

2/4/09

Hi Aidun,

Thank you for your detailed response to several of my questions. Your answers, along with the fact that our situations are very much alike, will finally allow me to respond in kind.

First of all, my predecessors did not get a chance to explore too much of our island. At this point, it looks like Team Banana shares the southern part of this island with 3 PAL cities. I am also fairly certain that the rest of PALs cities are north of there, and that is where the fighting with Caerbannog is going on. Other than that, I have very little geographic intel at this time.

Regarding our dealings with PAL since my arrival, I have been playing the part of bewildered newcomer looking for a break while subtly raising the stakes in our negotiations. And after getting Machinery, I am now on the verge of getting them to sign a 40-60 turn NAP (the same type of deal they have with Imperio, I'm told). But the truth is, the more I examine it, the more certain I am that I don't want it. Why is one of the biggest teams on our block willing to offer sustained peace to such a tinpot empire as our own? Unless they are weak in our backyard. I have a strong feeling that most of their troops are dedicated to the Rabbit frontlines, though I should know more next turn after I see where some of the slaved troops from this turn ended up (right now, the city of theirs I can see is defended by a Warrior).

Long story short, I believe I have a small window of opportunity to strike, but would probably have a hard time pulling it off by myself. Over time, my advances would eventually be rebuffed and PAL would likely become even stronger in the process. (Nobody wants that.) To succeed, I would need a partner to create more chaos at another vulnerable border, even if no action took place. Are you in a position to do so? And if so, are you game? I obviously would not want to tap your resources due to the dynamics you described on your half of the world.

And you thought your initial queries were overwhelming! I am trusting my instincts here by telling you all this, if only to help myself come to a rational decision. Accepting the trade offer I have sent will be a solid start. Agreeing to an alliance in the interests of mutual upward mobility would be pure gold. But if it doesn't work for you, I totally understand. I have no problem building up for 40-60 turns if it comes to that.

If possible, please respond to this by the end of the next turn cycle (200 BC).

Respectfully,
Donovan Zoi

2/5/09

Hi Donovan,

Thank you for the very extensive explanation of Banana's involvement
on the affairs on your island. Thank you also for the trade deal on
Machinery. My team understands that you are facing a difficult choice,
one that might have enormous consequences on the future of the game
and for the future of the diplomatic relationships on your island. It
has taken us some time to debate your request.

There are many reasons why a strong team could offer a relatively weak
one a NAP and from our position it is difficult to imagine PAL's
motives. We do know that PAL are not a team to mess with, unless you
are truly perfectly prepared. In your case, we deem that at least you
would need to establish diplomatic contacts with the Rabbits. Our
interpretation of your letter is that you do not have such contact.
Since the Rabbits are already at war with PAL, logically, you would
better coordinate your plan with them. Also they are in a much better
position to help you, since they are on the same landmass as you are.

That said, we are not sure whether from your position launching an
attack on PAL is a good idea. It will probably result in the very
quick and merciless elimination of your team. In our view that is not
something to look out for, unless you have altruistic intentions. My
team thinks that if one has to go down at some point, there are better
ways to go down than this way. We therefore strongly advise against
any hostile action against PAL now, for your own best.

In fact, other teams would likely be jealous if they could secure such
a close relationship with PAL. With Machinery ready to trade you can
also get in return some of the most powerful techs available at the
moment. Additionally you met my team and we have discovered in each
other an strong intention to work closely together. To make a long
story short: you still have an interesting future ahead of you and we
would bitterly regret to see you go down over a hostile action of
which we believe from our position that it won't hinder PAL a lot in
the long run, with or without our support.

Therefore we advise you to take that NAP offer from PAL, trade a bit
with them and meanwhile get to learn the Rabbits. Before you want to
take any military initiatives yourself, we think that one has to know
the details about the situation in which one wants to intervene. With
a NAP, you have the time to gather all the info and evaluate your
decision again. If it turns out that you were right after all, you can
always change your approach, NAP or no NAP.

Finally, my team also thinks that from our perspective it would not be
a good idea right now to become hostile to PAL:. As I said, we are
making some progress in the diplomatic field, doing some techtrading,
and with the fierce competition on our island, such contacts are
important. We are certainly not in a position to join in a military
alliance against PAL right now. We would be joining in a conflict of
which we know very little and have no clue of which side is better for
us to join. We don't even have any contact with the Rabbits and like
for you, if we would want to join an alliance against PAL, we first
need to establish contact with PAL's main enemy and get information
about the war.

The reason we sent away our boat is to get that broader perspective
and to establish relations with your team and the Rabbits, so we could
better evaluate our strategy towards PAL and the Rabbits. Could you
give us some directions which way our boat should sail? Could you also
tell us where your team is situated? do we have to go back northeast,
or do we have to continue our way south?

I should say, however, that if you gather information about the war
between PAL and the Rabbits that could get us to re-evaluate our
position, we always welcome such.

Best,

Aidun

Unfortunately, cooler heads prevailed. I would agonize over the following decision for almost the entire duration of the NAP I secured and would also wonder if Templars emails effectively lightened my stance, but more on that later (in the "10 Things" thread):

2/5/09

Aidun,

Thanks to you and your team for taking the time to discuss our situation and respond quickly. I totally understand and respect your reasons for not wanting to engage in such a conflict. You will be happy to know that, after reaching many of the conclusions that your team has, Team Banana has entered into a 60-turn NAP with PAL just shortly before we received your email. But not until after we created an event (the Bananian Sword Crisis?) that allowed some nice takeaways for us in negotiations. And yes, I was nervously scanning the horizon....

Also, I apologize for leaving out a few details regarding our contact with the Rabbits. It was not intentional, but did not seem entirely relevant at the time. After reading your response, though, it's quite apparent that more elaboration is necessary.

My predecessors must have gained Open Borders with the Rabbits because we do currently have that. However, my personal contact with them has been minimal, save for trading a few techs that everyone should have had by now. I have absolutely no geographic knowledge of where they are, or where the conflict is taking place. I can tell you that the Rabbits only have two cities left yet still seem to have a good amount of troops. Due to our recent signing of the PAL NAP and upcoming trades, I do expect our relations to go south quickly.

Regarding the movement of your Fishing Boat --- if you were headed south then you are now headed due west and see nothing but desert and water. That will continue for about the next four turns before you can head south again. Long story short, you would reach our borders in 15-20 turns (a guess; i am not looking at the map presently) and see nothing but desert on your way. We will be building a city near where we met shortly, and will likely build a Fishing Boat to see what's out in your region.

Two more things:

1. At some point, we will need to talk about Open Borders, though I don't think either one of us can take advantage of the trade benefits at this time. Once we get around to Currency, it will be a necessity for us both.

2. I don't see PAL taking 60 turns to finish their business with the Rabbits. I am also not sure exactly where you are located and won't even ask at this time, but with ourselves and Team Imperio engaged in long-term NAP's with PAL, that would only leave your team and the Realms team as possible targets. So let's keep each other posted on our diplomatic dealings with PAL, and I will try to provide regular updates on the Rabbits demise.

As always, I look forward to working with your team for our mutual benefit.

Regards,
Donovan Zoi

[Donovan Zoi]

Another reason for our suspicion of Templars gently nudging us away from war with PAL? The emails just STOPPED. In fact, we had to shake them down for the tech they still owed us:

2/24/09

Aidun and Team Templar,

I was just accosted by the Bananian Loose Ends department, who had asked me to get a time estimate as to when we can complete our previous trade. How many turns until you discover Theology?

I myself understand that it may still be a few turns, but you know how these bureaucratic types can get. Please drop me a line whenever you get a chance.

Hope all is well with you and your team.

Regards,
Donovan

3/2/09 - a week later and a month after the initial trade

Hi Donovan,

We will take 6-7 turns to complete it from now.

I will not be able to respond very much to you, because due to RL, my
time has become extremely limited.

Your messages will be noticed by our turnplayer, however. When
available I will respond, but in other cases, I will have to leave it
to others, I'm afraid.

Best,

Aidun

3/2/09

Aidun,

Thanks for letting me know. Good luck out there in RL; I know how it hard it can be to help run a nation while spinning several plates offline.

Regards,
Donovan

[/AIDUN]

[Donovan Zoi]

In the weeks that we had fallen out of touch with Templars, we were able to meet and form a solid initial working relationship with the Realms Beyond team. The first order of business was seeing if the three of us would be able to work together, so I was called in to help begin talks:

3/11/09

Team Templar,

We have recently been in talks with the Realms team and would like to offer the opportunity for a three-team trade proposal. Once you discover Theology, would you be able to research Drama? If so, once you discover it you could trade it to both teams, and you would get Calendar (from us) and Construction (from Realms) in return.

First, you will notice that Drama is around 70 beakers less that the other two techs, so the trade definitely works to your advantage. Secondly, it may give our teams a chance to stay competitive with PAL and Imperio.

On a side note, the Realms team has confided in us that they would like the opportunity to work closer with your team, and that you should not be wary of their intentions. If you would like, I can help to facilitate talks between the two of you.

Lastly, I see that your Workboat is nearing our cultural borders. We never did get a chance to discuss the terms of Open Borders after you offered it. With map trading a not-so-distant reality, our team is a bit hesitant to have our coastline mapped out unless we can be certain this information will not be shared with other teams. And since there is no way we can know for sure, I believe the best solution would be for you to allow us passage once we neared your borders.

That said, can you give me an idea of how far we may be be from your lands? Our Galley is currently sailing south of a large desert that I am guess is west (or northwest?) of your location. Do you know the desert I am talking about? If so, how soon until we can cross over to your continent? If your could anchor your boat this turn until we get a chance to talk this through, our team would appreciate that.

Sorry to have so many things going on at once. Please respond when you get a chance.

Regards,
Donovan Zoi
Team Banana

3/14/09 - from Hercules?

Your communication to us is being discussed. I personally feel it is a good proposition. Re open borders and such, we would not trade our map knowledge. Our territory is about 8 to 10 tiles north/north west of that marble hill on the desert coast, near where you spotted us first.

3/18/09 yep, must have been...

Hi Donovan,

We are prepared to honour our deal and send Theology to you, this turn but we would ask that you do not build the Apostolic Palace. Can you provide us with that assurance.?

Templars.

PS We are now researching Drama.

I was away for almost 2 days otherwise I would have been in contact sooner.

Hercules

3/18/09

Hercules,

We had no intention of building that wonder, so that's fine. Though I am a bit surprised that you are now putting conditions on a finalized deal, especially when we granted you Machinery in good faith much earlier than we could have.

Good to see you are working on Drama. How many turns until it's discovered? We get Calendar in 2 turns.

Regards,
Donovan

3/18/09

Donovan,

Thanks for response. I think we intended to include it in our negotiations but with our diplomatic service reduced, it got overlooked.

Re Drama, probably about 5/6 turns, We are taking a 1 turn to boost our cash reserves and then back to research.

Hercules.