AI takeover of PAL

[Swiss Pauli]

A quick vote to see who'd be willing to take the time to keep playing the turns if PAL can't find a human sub.

Personally, I vote 'no': I'd happily lurk but I doubt I could find the motivation to manage our empire.

What say you?

[mostly-harmless]

I will keep up my current level of involvement, lurking and the odd comment/suggestion.

I want to see our continent united under the RB flag and possibly a victory screen.

Can the host (sunrise) force an AI takeover?

mh

[Zeviz]

With only Rabbits as opposition, game would be practically over, so I'd suggest making final State of Empire report (perhaps even emailing Sulla a save from the turn when The Warning was burned down, since that's the last turn when the game was played seriously), and then somebody just playing as quickly as they want (without bothering with detailed turn reports) to give people satisfaction of getting to victory screen. (I think Sunrize volunteered in the public thread. )

[darrelljs]

I will keep up my current level of involvement, lurking and the odd comment/suggestion.

Ditto.

Darrell

[Sullla]

I know that I've been one of the biggest proponents of continuing play, but that was based upon the assumption that we would have humans staying on to take over all of the civs. If PAL, Banana, and Imperio are all being controlled by AIs, this game simply needs to end immediately. There's no point in beating a dead horse, which is what a game between us and Rabbits would be. I mean jeez, they're 2 AGES behind technologically, and we have 24 cities to their 4. It's not even funny. I certainly can't muster the time or interest to play out the tedium of researching to Astronomy, loading our invincible army onto galleons, and sailing over to kill Rabbits.

With regards to Zeviz's comment, I already took a save game from the current turn so that I can take as many endgame screenshots and statistics as I want. But I won't be putting together another State of the Empire post, I'll rather start working on the massive writeup of game's total history (which I can then permanently archive on my website). That will likely take a week or two... but I'll keep everyone here updated.

Going to be some... interesting... comments about the overall setup, map design, and Templar diplomacy in there.

[T-hawk]

Rabbits have every right to play out to a full conclusion if they so desire. We would be screaming bloody murder if somebody decided we were too irrelevant to be allowed to continue. Maybe they invented some variant goals for themselves a while ago and are still trying to accomplish that. That attitude of "u suck quit now" is exactly what turns off RB players from the MP community, yet now we're turning into that ourselves.

Besides, we're the SP crowd. How many dozens of times has every one of us "tediously" conquered hapless AIs? How can we complain about that? A proper tale comes to a proper conclusion. To The Bitter End has long been watchwords for us, yet we want to deprive Rabbits of the same? Rabbits declaring war on PAL shows that they're certainly willing to try for a comeback.

I'm willing to stay on in any capacity necessary up to full turnplayer until a victory screen, regardless of who the opponents are.

[sunrise089]

I agree with T-Hawk - I understand the time demands on this game, but the Rabbits have been excellent sports the entire game, generally playing their turns on time, not asking for pauses, etc. Even if we don't continue with the grade A micromanagement I think it's a nice gesture to not just end the Rabbits' game because we feel they're too far behind.

[mostly-harmless]

I agree, but want to have AI's right now, not in a couple of turns (in PAL's case). Humans can gain back control of the AI if they so desire.

mh

[darrelljs]

I think we should let the AI take over RB as well, jump onto the Rabbits team, and see if we can find a way to victory.

Darrell

[mostly-harmless]

Haha, very good.

Are there any tech trades agreed with Banana, that are already partially conducted? Meaning is anyone owing anyone else some tech right now? Because wjen the AI takes over, we will have a hard time convincing them to let go.
That said, I am fine with the AI take over this turn, if there are no techs owed. That might mix up our plans, but with the AI as opponent, we are getting a big bonus already-

Sunrise should just save the current game, switch Banana, PAL & Imperio to AI and we can get the next turns wrapped up pretty quickly, with Rabbits always promptly playing their turns.

If someone comes screaming (Donovan?) we can always load back to the current save game.

mh

[Sullla]

To The Bitter End has long been watchwords for us, yet we want to deprive Rabbits of the same? Rabbits declaring war on PAL shows that they're certainly willing to try for a comeback.

But that's my point: it's no longer a real Demogame once we start introducing AI takeover. Would Rabbits ever initiate a war at this stage against a PAL team controlled by humans? Not likely. What you guys are suggesting is changing the rules of the game in mid-stream, long after the game started. Frankly, I think it trivializes the events that have already taken place (our hard-fought struggle to reach this point) if Rabbits are going to start waltzing through an incompetent AI. Now we're into the metagaming territory, of "what can I get from the AI that I couldn't get when a human was playing?" It's an entirely different game, that cheapens the events that actually took place when all teams were playing.

Either the game is played against and between humans, or it shouldn't be played at all.

(Furthermore, this whole thing is just silly. Rabbits log in exactly once each turn, and play for all of 5 minutes. Nor have they responded to any diplomacy in months. They checked out of this game ages ago. Why should we work to accomodate them? If the game is RB and Rabbits, it's a pointless exercise. You don't play the bottom of the ninth when the home team has the lead! )

[Zeviz]

The reason to keep playing is that it's nice to the remaining players, and costs us only 10 minutes per day for a turnplayer. Several people already agreed to do this, and I can be a third backup.

In fact, this could be a chance for our lurkers to try playing a few turns in the game. If the outcome is obvious, even major mistakes wouldn't be fatal, so go ahead and sign up to be a turnplayer for a couple turns.

[T-hawk]

What you guys are suggesting is changing the rules of the game in mid-stream, long after the game started.

Good point and you are right. But the original game can no longer exist if PAL is unwilling to play. I think a changed game is a preferable alternative to no game at all.

And I don't know about Rabbits waltzing over a PAL-become-AI. The AI might be terrible tactically, but it still has all the units and techs PAL built and can still resist a human one-quarter its size and an age behind in military tech. At the very least it'll take Rabbits long enough to gain an upper hand that we will be able to take the initiative ourselves in attacking ex-PAL.

Sullla, I wonder if your historian self is getting a little overeager? I'm getting a sense that perhaps you're impatient for the game to end so that you can write about it. Action has to happen first before it can be immortalized in history.

[sooooo]

I'm not that keen on playing an AI. On prince when you have 10-15 more cities than them it's not exactly a challenge.

[Sullla]

Sullla, I wonder if your historian self is getting a little overeager? I'm getting a sense that perhaps you're impatient for the game to end so that you can write about it. Action has to happen first before it can be immortalized in history.

Haha, maybe sometimes but not in this case. I just have little interest in "playing out the string" in a game that's finished. I really was looking forward to a true late-game showdown with PAL, since that almost never happens in Civ4. With that possibility disappearing, I simply don't have the motivation to keep going at the high-level pace from before. I mean, I still plan to continue following the game, but I certainly wouldn't be doing the C&D type projections. I also tend to be someone who only gets involved in an activity if I'm going to put real effort into it. "Sorta kinda" messing around in an-already won game isn't my style.

OK, I will admit that I was hoping we could crack open the Templar archives and discover what kind of crazy weed they were smoking during this game.