Operation "Backstab"

[sooooo]

Hmm, well actually I've changed my mind - we should take constantinople next turn if Imperio advance their stack next to damascus this turn. We need the time to take the city and move to damascus.

If we take constantinople next turn (T165), mainly using troops from our eastern stack, we can move any remaining troops onto the grass tile with the worker on it.

I'm not sure Imperio will capture the city on T165, probably they will do so on T166 after spending one turn bombarding to 0%. If the city has walls it will take all of their catapults to bombard the city, leaving none to suicide. But if they do capture it on T165 we can hit their stack on T166 (and go for Mutal!). If they wait until T166 to capture the city we can strike on T167.

[Kylearan]

Hi,

We're big enough to admit it's a backstab, so we just tell Naldo: 'sorry about the backstab, but you broke our balls with the peace treaty & gunpowder trades, so we couldn't see a long term alliance against PAL working out. It's a cold-blooded move, but we didn't see any other option open to us'.

I agree with Swiss Pauli on this. Trying to find excuses like that they didn't declare on Templars is a bit silly and won't fool anyone, so let's be honest about it. I think this will also help to prevent carrying over bad feelings from the game over to the gamers.

-Kylearan

[sunrise089]

I also provisionally agree to wait to attack Mutal and Chichen. I was going to ask the team about timing in my report, but thought it made more sense to wait and see what happened later in the turn with Templars and Imperio. Just so everyone is on the same page, the only compelling reason NOT to delay the attack is that there is some risk Imperio will reinforce their vulnerable northern cities, especially after we capture Constantinople.

[Sullla]

Right - I concur, I just don't see that happening. I think Imperio totally believes that we are now their dear allies, and remember too that the only units they can actually "see" up there in the north are the two galleys. We even have a logic to build them, since their own galley was poking around the area. Imperio should have a unit or two running around in our territory, watching where our stacks are located... but they don't. Their loss.

I'm not convinced that Imperio will capture Damascus as soon as T166. They certainly could, however their team has been pretty flaky over the past few weeks. This is why I'd like to see us keep our chariot in the area, watching their stacks move around. We need to know exactly what turn to initiate things! I can actually keep track of the defenses in Mutal just by watching the C&D builds.

We could potentially even wait a little longer than when Imperio goes after Damascus... Another thought is that we simply wait for Imperio to take Damascus AND Acre, thereby eliminating Templars from the game. Maybe that's too long to wait, but it is a possibility, and it might be nice to remove all of the Templar war weariness before starting up new unhappiness with Imperio. It would also remove any worries about losing trade routes with Banana too, and see the maximum amount of Imperio/Templar wasteful fighting. Worth a thought anyway, we'll wait and watch what happens...

There's no doubt that we should capture Constantinople next turn. (Thank goodness Templars didn't use their Great General for a City Garrison III super-unit! That would have made the most sense.)

[sunrise089]

If we wait for Imperio to take out Templars I'd really really like to get our horses back. We can crank knights and attack Mutal with a stronger stack, and then peel off and maybe take another city on the cheap - with one Holkan per city its definitely possible.

[Sullla]

Well, let's fire off a message to Banana then! There's no reason why we can't let them know that we need our horses right now. I mean, we're still at war and they're not. Just promise Donovan that we'll have another source hooked up in about 5t or so, and they'll have permanent access thereafter.

[darrelljs]

With PAL having Steel I am sure Banana badly needs the Horse resource. We should at least let them keep it one more turn so they can whip out any partially completed Knights.

Darrell

[sunrise089]

Remember though Darrell - Knights don't flank Cannons.

[Zeviz]

I agree about waiting for Imperio to take Damascus, but waiting for Acre would take too long.

As for Banana, did we ask about their opinion on a pre-emptive strike with Knights? If they road a farm tile near PAL border, they could capture PAL's border city on the turn war is declared. If they go with that plan, that would be better than using the horses ourselves.

[sunrise089]

I agree about waiting for Imperio to take Damascus, but waiting for Acre would take too long.

As for Banana, did we ask about their opinion on a pre-emptive strike with Knights? If they road a farm tile near PAL border, they could capture PAL's border city on the turn war is declared. If they go with that plan, that would be better than using the horses ourselves.

If they one-move the city they don't need many knights, unless PAL is keeping a large garrison in the city. If they are, then Banana will probably need catapults anyways and the whole idea doesn't work.

[Kylearan]

Hi,

Agreed with Sullla on waiting a bit before the backstab. Indeed, since we will probably want a turn or two to heal after Constantinople so it makes sense to delay until that stack is ready again.

I don't know exactly where our and Imperio's SoDs are right now, but what if they decide to backstab *us*? Is there a possibility for them to do this and annihilate our stack, like we plan to do with theirs?

I know we believe they trust us, but what if they think along the same lines as we do, and look for an opportunity to wipe out *our* SoD? Are we susceptible to such a backstab?

This scenario is probably (hopefully) far-fetched, but I thought I'd ask that question about our stack's vulnerability before we decide to delay the backstab. Having to wait for our SoD to heal sounds like that could be a nice opportunity for Imperio...

-Kylearan

[sunrise089]

Hi,

I don't know exactly where our and Imperio's SoDs are right now, but what if they decide to backstab *us*? Is there a possibility for them to do this and annihilate our stack, like we plan to do with theirs?

I know we believe they trust us, but what if they think along the same lines as we do, and look for an opportunity to wipe out *our* SoD? Are we susceptible to such a backstab?

This scenario is probably (hopefully) far-fetched, but I thought I'd ask that question about our stack's vulnerability before we decide to delay the backstab. Having to wait for our SoD to heal sounds like that could be a nice opportunity for Imperio...

-Kylearan

We've looked at this possibility, but it's probably unlikely.

First, even if they were successful we only need a single turn before we can hit Mutal and Chichen Itza if we keep our northern forces in their staging areas, so we wouldn't come out as total loosers.

Second, in the short term Imperio has no ability to backstab us because they can't use Templars' road network. Perhaps there is some sort of crazy Imperio-sponsored plot for Templars to declare on Imperio so Imperio can surprise us, but that seems too far fetched considering Imperio has been killing Templar units.

So all that said, the risk is after we take Constantinople. But even then Imperio has to land within three tiles of Constantinople to ever hit our stack, and as soon as they do we can hit them. They would need to move in on Constantinople while our troops are still healing, but with our GG that is a very brief window. The biggest single opportunity Imperio has is when we advance our units towards theirs, assuming they don't approach Constantinople. So at that time we'll have to be carefully tactically, possibly using horse units to pillage roads and then only rebuilding them when we're ready to strike.

[Swiss Pauli]

The risk of serious exposure is very low as Imperio's road network to Constantinople is missing a couple of key links at the border, though Imperio realising we're up to no good when we take Constantinople next turn could make things awkward for us. The worst case scenario would be peace between Imperio & Templars who also sign OBs. However, the bad blood between them over their last alliance & current fighting makes this unlikely.

As I see it, the main question is whether Imperio will go through with an attack on Damascus if we take Constantinople. One big disadvantage Imperio has is their lack of log-ins to the game: in all probability they'll see the capture message for Constantinople just as they need to play their turns, limiting their chance to weigh their options.

(so much for not polluting this thread with backstab stuff )

[sooooo]

Here's a picture of our troops at Constantinople:



And a picture of the Incan defenders:

[mostly-harmless]

Even if we delay OP Backstab, I suggest to put our 4 mariner Oromos onto those galleys now, reducing the risk of them being spotted by Imperio in the turn to come.

mh