Operation "Backstab"

[mostly-harmless]

Dunno. Instinct tells me the benefits should be lost, but experience tells me this might not be the case. Maybe we should test it?

Just had a look. Seems like the benefits are no longer there. Could that be linked to us defying that resolution?

mh

[Swiss Pauli]

Yes, defying loses the hammers: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=319452

[Sullla]

OK, for all you non-MP folks, here's why trying to keep Mutal is a bad idea.



I've drawn in the full cultural borders of all the cities around Mutal, assuming that we will capture Chichen Itza as planned. The key tile is the one already identified, one SE of Mutal. This spot will remain in Imperio hands no matter what we do, making an effective defense all but impossible. That tile has been in Mutal's first ring the whole game, plus it's been getting accumulated culture from Lakamha and Mayapan for ages now. The tile undoubtedly has a "culture score" rating in the thousands, so we may as well forget about having any chance to control it ourselves. Yes, we get bonus culture for it being in our first ring, but the bonus culture only amounts to 20/turn. That won't even be enough to overcome the culture being added each turn from Lakamha and Mayapan, much less erode away the THOUSANDS of culture points already in place from Imperio's prior possession of Mutal. Trust me, I've spent tons of time working with the culture formula. The only way to control that tile will be to capture/raze Lakamha AND Mayapan, a tall order.

However, even leaving aside that tile for a moment, we still shouldn't consider holding on to Mutal. Discounting the white "X" above, Imperio can still double-move on Mutal from no less than SIX different tiles, indicated with white arrows above. And that's not even including Oxhuitza, which I expect us to raze in the wake of a successful Mutal attack. Six different spots for a double-move! The only defense against that would be maintaining a large garrison in Mutal at all times, which would tie us down and remove all tactical flexibility. I think it will be worthwhile to do that at Lakamha (Imperio's best city and possessor of the Islamic Shrine + Notre Dame) but Mutal is just too poorly situated.

I appreciate the comments and feedback, however you guys have to remember that this is NOT Single Player, and we cannot afford to have Imperio recapture their capital city back from us. As a civ, Imperio gets about 70% of its production from Mutal, Lakamha, and Chichen Itza. Knock out two of those three cities immediately, plus the existing Imperio army, and we win the war. Period. No need to take any silly risks from getting too greedy!

[Iamjohn]

Well I'm certainly willing to raze it. IMO we should be happy with what we can get away with already.

In anycase though, it'd be a significant amount of resources we'd be forced to use to defend Mutal, that much more that wouldn't be in an army capturing/razing other imperio cities, and the slower we'd recover from our warmongering ways and get ready for the real fight with PAL.

[Zeviz]

Note that without Iron, Imperio will not be training any mounted units, so we only have to worry about 1-mover attack. And we have to protect our northern cities anyway, so if we raze Mutal, we'll have to garrison Cape Town and Chichen Itza instead. Why not keep our northern defense force in Mutal, instead of CT itself?

If Imperio gets to keep its army, I agree that keeping Mutal will be impossible. However, if they are down to city garrisons while we have a small stack left, there is no way they can both recapture Mutal and stop our southern advance. Let's see where we stand 2 turns from now, because if we fail to catch Imperio's main army this debate becomes pointless.

[sunrise089]

Note that without Iron, Imperio will not be training any mounted units, so we only have to worry about 1-mover attack. And we have to protect our northern cities anyway, so if we raze Mutal, we'll have to garrison Cape Town and Chichen Itza instead. Why not keep our northern defense force in Mutal, instead of CT itself?

If Imperio gets to keep its army, I agree that keeping Mutal will be impossible. However, if they are down to city garrisons while we have a small stack left, there is no way they can both recapture Mutal and stop our southern advance. Let's see where we stand 2 turns from now, because if we fail to catch Imperio's main army this debate becomes pointless.

Look at what Templars cost us per city - I think with enough drafting and slaving Imperio can certainly hold us off, of course at the cost of torpedoing their civ's long term ability to compete.

FYI - The reason it is MUCH easier to hold Cape Town is because we will have cultural defense and always have warning of an attack.

Also, are we going to try to keep Chichen Itza? I thought we planned to raze both cities.

[Sullla]

Well y'all can do what you want, but my personal recommendation is VERY strongly to raze Mutal. We should be able to hold Chichen Itza though without too much trouble. I advise capturing rather than razing there.

[mostly-harmless]

Chichen fits nicely into our dotmap and should be kept.

About Mutal, all I was saying was, that we keep an open mind. If we by some miracle not lose our mariner Oromos and not lose our mounted stack in the Mutal attack and our main stack largely intact and Imperio's army defeated, then we should consider keeping Mutal. That's all there is to that idea. Imperio has little garrison units in their remaining cities to threaten with a counter attack. In that scenario we eat through their remaining cities in no-time.

However, in the more likely scenario that we lose some of our mariners, some of our mounted stack and a significant portion of our main army, then Mutal is not defendable and must be razed.

Lets all calm down here and have a fresh look on T170.

mh

[timmy827]

I hate to be the wet blanket, but has anyone tried a sim of what happens when we capture CI? Yes, there is no Mutal-culture in the tiles 1S and 2S1W of the city which is what we need to have the Mutal strike ready. But this game is notorious for buggy behavior in the borders right after a capture, where it takes a turn or two for them to properly adjust, so I fear that one of those crucial tiles will remain actively Maya.

[mostly-harmless]

I hate to be the wet blanket, but has anyone tried a sim of what happens when we capture CI? Yes, there is no Mutal-culture in the tiles 1S and 2S1W of the city which is what we need to have the Mutal strike ready. But this game is notorious for buggy behavior in the borders right after a capture, where it takes a turn or two for them to properly adjust, so I fear that one of those crucial tiles will remain actively Maya.

IIRC, the Mutal strike is independent from the CI success, as the mounted stack advances via the Rice tile.

mh

[sooooo]

Probably the tile to put our knights on is 2W of Mutal? It's the furthest away from the southern army we can get.

[darrelljs]

Note that without Iron, Imperio will not be training any mounted units

Or Cannon, assuming PAL gifts them Steel.

Darrell

[Iamjohn]

Does anyone else have extra iron that they might give imperio to spite us?

[mostly-harmless]

Does anyone else have extra iron that they might give imperio to spite us?

No. Rabbits lost their iron to PAL.
PAL has only the Rabbit Iron.

mh

[T-hawk]

But this game is notorious for buggy behavior in the borders right after a capture, where it takes a turn or two for them to properly adjust, so I fear that one of those crucial tiles will remain actively Maya.

The new borders are visible while the "capture or raze?" dialog is up. We'll have information on the borders before the raze decision.