Turnplayer Thread #2.

[regoarrarr]

Sullla can you give me some more details on what you want me to compare?

Whipping doesn't seem to measure up to standard settler building, just off the cuff.

Assuming that we wouldn't want to whip any sooner than every 10 turns, we can slow-build a settler at size 4 (cattle, rice, hill, hill) with 5 extra food and 10 hammers, so every 6 2/3 turns.

If there is something specific that you'd like to check, gimme the details

[sooooo]

I would imagine it's quite hard to run calculations on whipping vs building, because it depends on what is important to you. I'm not sure which is best, but there are other factors than just how much hammers we can get over x turns. Whipping gets a settler earlier, so our new city can develop earlier (but also we suffer maintenence earlier). Also we need to factor in the hammers the city will put into something else after being whipped while regrowing.

Personally I'd be tempted to work the mine at pink dot and build the archer, then a granary. Then whip a settler. I don't think that working lake over mine is sensible. I know it's nice that the archer would coincide with growing, but it doesn't matter if the archer finishes before growth. We have plenty of things to use with our hammers (granary) and production is always more important than commerce at this stage of the game.

[Sullla]

I guess I'm not seeing the need for a granary at the moment in a city that can reach +9 food/turn, and can't grow past size 4. The biggest issue with whipping is that it relegates Pink to a max of size 3 for a whole ten turns. That's not much, to say the least...

We do want to have a city build some military, right? Our army is composed of warriors and archers. The Templars have an axe, chariot, and tons of quechuas. Imperio has a holkan and a mixture of three more chariots/holkans. I trust them to an extent, but only to an extent. We're no longer the big leader in Soldier count, just an average civ in the middle of the pack.

Personally, I'll feel a lot more secure if we train a mixture of chariots, spears, and axes out of Pink in the near future.

[mostly-harmless]

I would be more comfortable with having a few chariots around asap.
And regarding PAL: that was actually a triple whip!

mh

[sooooo]

Originally posted by Sullla
I guess I'm not seeing the need for a granary at the moment in a city that can reach +9 food/turn, and can't grow past size 4. The biggest issue with whipping is that it relegates Pink to a max of size 3 for a whole ten turns. That's not much, to say the least...

We do want to have a city build some military, right? Our army is composed of warriors and archers. The Templars have an axe, chariot, and tons of quechuas. Imperio has a holkan and a mixture of three more chariots/holkans. I trust them to an extent, but only to an extent. We're no longer the big leader in Soldier count, just an average civ in the middle of the pack.

Personally, I'll feel a lot more secure if we train a mixture of chariots, spears, and axes out of Pink in the near future.

OK, but granary or no I would much prefer to work the mined hill over the lake tile.

[Zeviz]

Regoarrarr, thanks for the calculation. Since we have only 1 mine so far, how does that change your calculation of whip vs. no whip? (Especially if we work Cow+mine(s) to grow back from size 2 to size 4 after whipping granary.)

[Sullla]

I had all kinds of crazy computer problems last night, but I managed to get into Safe Mode and perform a system restore. (God bless the man who came up with System Restore!) So without further ado, here are the highlights from T73:

- As I mentioned above, Imperio settled Chichen Itza (the city, not the wonder) last turn. Here's an updated screenshot:



I moved our warrior, Jennifer, back towards Cape Town to appear unthreatening. In related news, O'Brien finished a pasture on the horses, and plans to add a road over the next two turns. After that... do we go for the cows or copper next? I say we go for the cows, and cancel that order if it turns out we have no iron. Thoughts?

- Winston finished a third cottage at Airstrip One, which the city can work once it grows to size 5 (next turn). What do we want Winston to do next? My initial feeling was to build some roads towards the future Twin Peaks location, but we can probably do better. (Pre-chop forests for library?)

- More on Pink... We have 7/26 food in the box and 9/25 shields (archer). Here's the best option I see: one more turn working the lake tile (+7 food, 4 shields), then two turns working the grassland hill (+6 food, 7 shields). That gets us growth AND archer done in 3 more turns (19 total food, 18 total shields) with no overrun in either category. Pretty nice, eh?

- Imperio looks like they got another huge increase in GNP this turn. Why, I don't know. (Gold tile, more culture?) Templars added 3000 more Soldier points (archer or barracks) and PAL looks like they added something worth 4000 points (spear or chariot) plus another 1000 for pop growth. We're going to need some more troops just to keep up in Soldier count soon.

That's all I can think of for now - keep the feedback/advice coming!

[Zeviz]

I agree about Road on Horses -> Pasture on Cows. (Both more useful than mining copper and keeps up the appearance that we have another source.)

If we are planning to found fifth city in the south, perhaps Winston should go there to help build mines around Pink Dot, and then road towards new city.

If we want to explore using Galley, we should start negotiations with Imperio about OB treaty. Otherwise the Galley we are building at Cape Town is just a waste of production that could be spent on military units.

[mostly-harmless]

Cape Towns purpose was to get us those strategic resources. I am very much in favor in getting Horses connected and then Copper next instead of Cows.
I am a bit worried by us falling behind in army size. Unless we can somehow negotiate a stop to the army buildup on our continent I'd rather have that copper available.
There is next to nothing we can do if Templars decide to approach Pink Dot with Quechas, Axes & Spears.
I think we need a NAP going with Templars soonest.
That said I want to echo Zeviz about getting an understanding with Imperio about Open Borders now, so we can finish it off, once we have Writing.

As for Winston: Pre chopping a forest for library and then roading towards Twin Peaks. The China Beach worker can finish the chop once Writing is in.

mh

[sunrise089]

I agree with m_h that a copper mine should be next...I'd rather play that safe and delay growth a bit.

The one good news is that Imperio's new city is really easy to split from their cap. Our future hypothetical horse archer stack can start in our cap, use the road on the horses to move to the desert 1N of the 1-tile lake at the end of the turn, then to the hill next to the 2 peak tiles, and then hit either the new city or the cap.

[Sullla]

Just regarding the galley - it's not useless even if Imperio refuses to grant Open Borders. Remember, we need at least two galleys to sit in the Fjord to allow quick reinforcements to reach Cape Town if threatened. We are not planning on building a road to Cape Town (at least not for a very long time), due to the ridiculously anti-RB geography in the region.

We definitely need to start contacting Imperio and Templars about negotiating Open Borders agreements soon. (If we wait until we actually have Writing, it will mean a serious delay.) Should Imperio want to deny OB, we can have our exploring work boat make a 180 degree turn and take the southern route to the eastern continent, through Templar territory. I'd prefer to northern route if at all possible, because it's much shorter.

I've heard two calls for O'Brien to go after the copper next, versus one for the cows. Still lots of time to weigh in on this issue if desired.

One last odd note: according to CivStats, neither Templars nor Banana logged into the game last turn. Banana's been kind of flaky for a while, but that's very odd behavior for Templars. Imperio has actually been pretty consistent at playing their turns lately.

[regoarrarr]

I vote for the cows. I think that as many people have mentioned before - in a situation like this we need to take (smart) risks - the safe play is going to keep us in the middle of the pack.

[Zeviz]

The reason I prefer connecting Cows first is that in the near term we are planning to train an archer and then a chariot or Settler, by which time we'll know location of Iron. So we might not need the copper that badly.

And Templars should be too worried about Imperio to consider attacking us. In fact, I am pretty sure that Imperio is planning to attack them, because they have to do something with their Chariots, and breaking a NAP with us might not be the best idea at this point, especially when they can use that NAP to conquer Templar part of the continent.

PS This is the reason I don't want a NAP with Templars: If Imperio kill them under protection of a NAP with us, I want an option to join in splitting up our continent.

PPS We might want to let Templar know about Imperio's NAP with us, if we are afraid of their attack. Even Templar should be smart enough to look ar rapid growth on Imperio's power graph and figure out the implications of Imperio's NAP with the only other power on the continent.

[mostly-harmless]

I am still not convinced to go for cows first.
I can't see what we loose when going for Copper first and can sleep at night.

Zeviz said to mention our NAP with Imperio to the Templars. I think that is a prudent move.

mh

[mostly-harmless]

A new turn has begun. Finishing that road near Pink Dot had some nice effects.
Trade is now possible with all civs we know. That also comes with some interesting insights ito available resources our opponents have. We could try to trade away our excess cow maybe.

Also the trade connection means Cape Twon is connected before we clear the Nort West Passage, so horses will be available to the core sooner.

mh