City Management

[sooooo]

I am happy to go along with the plan suggested by m-h and summarised by Sullla. I don't think a barracks is necessary right now because the hammers and delay don't justify the promotion that any archers built will get. I think a barracks will be necessary for when we build metal units (or if we have no metal!) but what can wait should wait.

[mostly-harmless]

With our plan somewhat shaken with the discovery of Cape Copper, we now have to face the decision what to do next in our cities.
Airstrip One is at size 4, one pop point below the happy cap. Recently created an archer at max production config (no growth)

Pink Dot has been whipped down to size 2 for the settler, has 13hammers overflow and plenty of food to regrow quickly.

I suggest to configure Airstrip One in a way to work the recentyl finished cottage instead of a mine to grow to size 5 and work on either a barracks or a granary. I favor the granary.
Pink Dot can go for additional military while regrowing to happy cap and then switch over to another worker.

The future for China Beach is pretty much set in stone with workboat (chopped) -> workboat (whipped).

mh

[ruff_hi]

I think we need a 3rd workboat (or a galley) out of China Beach to sail for the Eastern continent and meet (hopefully) the other 2 civs.

[sooooo]

I propose the opposite to m-h ( ): Archer at airstrip 1 and granary at Pink Dot. It sounds strange to build an archer at the city without a barracks, but Pink Dot really needs a granary because it is high food and a whipping candidate. With the overflow from the settler, now would be the perfect time. Aistrip One I agree can work its new cottage. This gives it a +2 food surplus, and growth in 14 turns to the happy cap. I don't see us whipping the city very much in the future. Both of these factors cause me to believe that a granary is low on the priorities for this city and that it should build an archer to defend itself (a warrior will not be sufficient to defend against barbarian warriors).

[mostly-harmless]

Grrr!
I see the point. My proposal was based only on gut feeling. I agree that we won't whip the capital much, only in cases of emergency because of the dire food situation. That's why I was proposing a granary there to help grow back the capital after emergency whips.
Pink Dot on the other hand is so food heavy, that I feel we will be limited to whip by the unhappiness rather by the potential to grow back the pop points.

@Ruff: I see Cape Copper creating the 3rd workboat to scout the eastern continent. But that can be decided a bit later of course.

mh

[sooooo]

OK I see your point but I don't think it's a sound strategy to build granaries in case we need an emergency whip. Building an archer should hopefully reduce the need for said whip

For China Beach I'm thinking a build order of WB -> WB -> Granary -> boat

The final exploring boat could be a work boat or galley. I hear there are many more babarian ships in (EDIT: the latest patch of) BTS - can anyone confirm? Anyone who played epic 15?

[Sullla]

Hmm, these are actually excellent questions. I think we're in general agreement on the tile configuration of each city at the moment. Therefore we can focus on what each city should be building, which is less clear.

Pink, I think, sets up rather nicely: we have 3 turns to growth (to size 3, where we will hit the happy cap due to our whipping). Currently, mostly_harmless set the city to build an archer, which will also take 3 turns. I would favor letting it finish the archer, then swapping to worker. That will take 5 turns, and then we can swap to granary and let the city grow back to size 4, as the whipping anger will have worn off. (Then we can whip the granary, if desired, or stay at max happy cap.)

The capital is a little more complicated. What we WANT to be building there is a library, but we don't have Writing yet, and won't until we complete the trade with PAL - likely about a dozen turns away. In the interval, what do we build? Not a settler or worker, since we want to grow to size 5. I'm pretty much with sooooo on the whipping issue - Airstrip One doesn't have much food, so we won't be whipping it often. But conversely, that's the same argument for a granary: it only has +2 food surplus! Thus it will need a granary already in place when we want to take it from size 5 to 6+.

I guess I'm advocating leaving the granary as-is, since I think we're OK on military for the moment. I wouldn't be averse to another archer at Airstrip One though, so if someone other than sooooo thinks we need it, persuade away.

I will leave the builds alone for the moment, while leaving the turn unended so we can go back and change tomorrow as needed.

[sooooo]

Just had a look around our cities, here are my comments/suggestions/questions:

Airstrip one is chopping+cottaging a grass forest. The worker should select the chop option, then a separate cottage function in order to get the granary sooner and hence start storing food sooner (at least I think that's how the granary works). I assume we want barracks after granary. I still have trouble with the logic of a granary now, since it will be a long long time until we can grow to size 6. However, would it be worth it to grow to size 6 and then whip in something (probably a library)? That would reduce the city to size 4 again, which is fine as it would work 3 cottages and a cows. We could then have it grow towards size 5 again, pause to build a worker/settler while the whip penalty wears off (while working all 3 cottages), then grow to 5 again.

I am really wondering if china beach should start a granary after its work boat. It will make all the other slavings so much more efficient.

I agree pink dot needs a worker next. The worker should then chop in a granary and then it should be at size 4 and have no more whip anger - time to whip another settler.

[sunrise089]

Doesn't a granary just bank food when the city grows? So it isn't worth adding a worker turn unless the city will grow before the cottage+chop would complete but after just a chop.

[ruff_hi]

Originally posted by sunrise089
Doesn't a granary just bank food when the city grows?

That is Civ3 thinking. Food is added to the granary as it is produced in Civ4 with the max food added being half the grow amount. There is an excellent discussion about this on CFC. The upshot is that the most optimal time to complete your granary is when the food container is at 50% full. Complete it earlier and you rushed the granary before something else, later and you don't get your maximum food carry over.

[sooooo]

Originally posted by sunrise089
Doesn't a granary just bank food when the city grows? So it isn't worth adding a worker turn unless the city will grow before the cottage+chop would complete but after just a chop.

Argh, the phantom "extra turn" reappears! There is no extra turn. Chop is 3 turns. Cottage is 4 turns. Cottage on a grasstile is 7 turns.

And the granary stores food when it is built, so best to build it asap. 50% may be the most efficient time, but after that it's still better to build it sooner rather than later.

[regoarrarr]

I think the point that with the chop->cottage you get the hammers at turn 3, rather than at turn 7. This would mean that the granary would (hypothetically) complete sooner.

[sunrise089]

regoarrarr is correct, but sadly that wasn't my point. On quick speed I believe there is a wasted turn at least sometimes (chop is 3 turns, mine is 3 turns, mine a forest hill is 5 turns).

[regoarrarr]

So now that we have religion in Airstrip One, thoughts on a Monastery there (rather than or in addition to a stele)?

[mostly-harmless]

I was thinking the same. With the current max production setting a monastery can be finished in 5 turns.
I would prefer it over a stele in priority for now.

mh