Disputes Thread

[sooooo]

A private forum is private for a reason, otherwise it would be public from the very start, why do you fail to understand that people? If the members of a private forum do not wish to turn it into a public one you should respect it.

Further more Krill, taking advantage of your access privilege to extort a fellow player do something against his will could lead to revocation of your privilege and get you banned.

If you have a serious reason to want a private forum to be turned into public despite the refusal of the members of that forum you should bring it to the attention of the administration of this site instead of threatening and mocking.

Blimey. This is the official position of apolyton staff? Eeek.

I admit I've only been a member of apolyton for this demogame and don't know much of the history of the forum rules. But, errr, a rule not to open teams' forums after a team game is rather strange and wasteful. The team forums are always opened after SGOTMs or demogames at CFC. Not that that's a reason to do it here of course, but it seems a more open way of doing things. More importantly, it is instructive to the lurkers and other participants to see how other teams approached the same map, how people conducted their diplomacy etc. If the forums stay closed that's a massive amount of potential for learning that will be lost. Like learning how PAL expanded so quickly to six cities in no time, that would be very instructive. Or how Rabbits hung on so well in the face of more advanced opponents. Or why Templars decided not to research calendar when having triple-sugar at their capital. All very informative, not just to the players of other teams, but to everyone who visits apolyton.

EDIT: To illustrate my point, anyone who has played the CFC SGOTMs, lost horribly to one of the russian teams (eg CRC) and then read their threads will have learnt an incredible amount. It's just scary how that team can approach a game differently to everyone else and blow the opposition out of the water.

Also, how do you answer Sullla's points?

[conmcb25]

My position remains the same.

I have never agreed to open my teams forums after a game. If my team in general agreed to it, then I would bow to the wishes of the team. However in this case the few people who remain semi active also agreed to not open the forum. It was a defacto team decision.

I have no issue with Krill writing some sort of "Cliff Notes" version of what happened. But publishing exactly what I said at any particular time is against my wishes and apparently against the rules of the site.

[Krill]

Quite frankly con, considering all of your posts consist of smilies now why exactly do you care? Or get a say even, because none of your original conversation exists.

[Zeviz]

Sullla and Sooooo already gave good explanation for why all forums should be opened (and why RB forums will not be censored in any way). The only thing to add is that there is a good rule to follow in life in general:

Don't say anything behind a person's back you wouldn't be willing to say to his face.

[Keygen]

No, a private forum in a demogame is a private forum so that infomation stays hidden during the game. Once the game is finished, there is no reason for them to stay private. Technically speaking, according to forum rules, flaming in a private forum is punishable exactly the same to flaming in public forums, so if the given reason is to keep insults and such hidden, admins such as you aren't enforcing the forum rules, in fact are encouraging them by allowing them to be kept hidden and said behind other players backs.

I'm not suggesting that you don't have reasonable arguments, I am aware of demo games, I do know that the main purpose of private forums in this type of games are to provide a more usable and organized way for the members of a team to communicate with each other and draw their plans, instead of exchanging emails. That doesn't mean that in the process people do not post sensitive data and advanced strategies and techniques that do not wish to go public. You should respect that.

And yes, general rules should apply to both public and private forums. However as far as I'm concerned I do not have access to the private forums of the teams participating in this demo game.

I am the game historian, as agreed upon by all teams and their members prior to the start of the game. It was agreed that I would write the history for this game upon completion. To do that I require the threads in the private forum, and I saved them to avoid tampering such as Con just did, in an attempt to go back on his and his teams agreement to have the history published.

Turns out it was pretty smart.

I'm not arguing of your responsibilities and whether you do your job well or not, but carefully read the following you wrote:

"Either open your forum willinglyso everyone can view it, or I'll write a very thorough history of how you played the game."

What do you mean by that?

As a game historian you should write the story behind this demo game with some entertaining details I presume, but your above statement indicates that unintended details about the Templars in general or conmcb25 in particular will be written unless the forum is made public.

Mate, this is an extortion...

Go back and reread what I said. Either or, mate. If anything, Con is being twofaced by originally agreeing to a written history, and then when given the option of keeping the forum closed, but with knowledge that his teams **** ups (and yes, teactically, strategically, **** ups is a good description) being made public knowledge, he was petty minded enough to go and edit every single one of his posts into a smiley face.

Also, I did PM Cybershy earlier about these forums being openned. I have yet to hear a reply.

I don't know the story thoroughly, I will further investigate the matter and see to what the Templars agreed upon or the rest of the teams. Also is there any other active member of the Templars or is it conmcb25 only?

Keep it civilized, and avoid threats and mockery, you're grown people and can handle an argument in a polite manner.

[Keygen]

Blimey. This is the official position of apolyton staff? Eeek.

I admit I've only been a member of apolyton for this demogame and don't know much of the history of the forum rules. But, errr, a rule not to open teams' forums after a team game is rather strange and wasteful. The team forums are always opened after SGOTMs or demogames at CFC. Not that that's a reason to do it here of course, but it seems a more open way of doing things. More importantly, it is instructive to the lurkers and other participants to see how other teams approached the same map, how people conducted their diplomacy etc. If the forums stay closed that's a massive amount of potential for learning that will be lost. Like learning how PAL expanded so quickly to six cities in no time, that would be very instructive. Or how Rabbits hung on so well in the face of more advanced opponents. Or why Templars decided not to research calendar when having triple-sugar at their capital. All very informative, not just to the players of other teams, but to everyone who visits apolyton.

EDIT: To illustrate my point, anyone who has played the CFC SGOTMs, lost horribly to one of the russian teams (eg CRC) and then read their threads will have learnt an incredible amount. It's just scary how that team can approach a game differently to everyone else and blow the opposition out of the water.

Also, how do you answer Sullla's points?

Personally, if I'd participated in this game, I would have no objection opening the private forum of my supposedly team to the public. On the other hand I do respect the wish of another team to keep their private forum closed to the public.

[sooooo]

Personally, if I'd participated in this game, I would have no objection opening the private forum of my supposedly team to the public. On the other hand I do respect the wish of another team to keep their private forum closed to the public.

OK, fair enough.

My position remains the same.

I have never agreed to open my teams forums after a game. If my team in general agreed to it, then I would bow to the wishes of the team. However in this case the few people who remain semi active also agreed to not open the forum. It was a defacto team decision.

I have no issue with Krill writing some sort of "Cliff Notes" version of what happened. But publishing exactly what I said at any particular time is against my wishes and apparently against the rules of the site.

OK, I understand your viewpoint. But what you still haven't explained is why your team wants to keep the forum closed and why specifically you have deleted all of your posts. I mean, just what exactly is in that forum? All this secrecy for what? I can assure you that there is nothing anyone can say in a team thread that would offend me, and that I'm sure goes for the rest of RB and I suspect the other four teams.

But if Templars persist on locking their forum and the apolyton staff allow this censorship, then there is nothing else to do. But can we at least open the other 5 forums? Even if PAL haven't posted much it would be nice to see how they started the game and some screenshots. PAL played really well in this game for the most part. And I'm sure the rabbits fora will be an amusing read .

[Krill]

I'm not suggesting that you don't have reasonable arguments, I am aware of demo games, I do know that the main purpose of private forums in this type of games are to provide a more usable and organized way for the members of a team to communicate with each other and draw their plans, instead of exchanging emails. That doesn't mean that in the process people do not post sensitive data and advanced strategies and techniques that do not wish to go public. You should respect that.

No, I definately do not agree with this. The history that I intended to write at the start of the game would include tactical and strategic analysis of all major moves, that was one of the few reasons I agreed to the role. Because the history was agreed to by all this, your point doesn't hold. Everything important was going to be made public.

You won't know this, but I'm currently a member of a demogame team that has been forced to improvise wildly to stay in the game, and I agree fully to everything that I have created being made public knowledge at the end of the game. And with Templars, nothing they did can be considered advanced, or even sensitive...you may think that is a troll, or a flame, but that is just my expert opinion.

And yes, general rules should apply to both public and private forums. However as far as I'm concerned I do not have access to the private forums of the teams participating in this demo game.

Bull****. Oh, and failure, on oh so many levels.

I'm not arguing of your responsibilities and whether you do your job well or not, but carefully read the following you wrote:

"Either open your forum willingly so everyone can view it, or I'll write a very thorough history of how you played the game."

What do you mean by that?

As a game historian you should write the story behind this demo game with some entertaining details I presume, but your above statement indicates that unintended details about the Templars in general or conmcb25 in particular will be written unless the forum is made public.

Mate, this is an extortion...

I mean a very simple thing: either open the forum (minus private stuff, ie leaving the turn threads, the diplomacy threads etc) so everyone can read it, or I will do the job that everyone agreed was mine to the letter. Technically it's bribery, as I'm required to write a history that will not reflect well on the Templars skill or diplomacy simply because it'll be honest, and I'm offering not to.

I don't know the story thoroughly, I will further investigate the matter and see to what the Templars agreed upon or the rest of the teams. Also is there any other active member of the Templars or is it conmcb25 only?

The only reasonably active member was Hercules, and I don't know where he is. And enjoy searching, but ultimately you'll see the issue wasn't raised as one of the 30+ options at the start of the game, and the sole admin for this game has already made a ruling. You really aren't doing Poly much good trying to ride roughshod across appointed game admins.

[Robert]

Krill, I have receivec your PM, but I want you guys to find a solution first. I don't want to open a forum against the wishes of the people who posted in that forum.
We're supposed to have fun here. Games always come with differences of opinion. It's much better to find a solution you all can live with then that I from the top decide to do or do not open the forums.

I can only suggest all involved parties to consider what's more important, keep your foot down, or give in (a bit) to find a solution that will make everybody happy.

[Keygen]

No, I definately do not agree with this. The history that I intended to write at the start of the game would include tactical and strategic analysis of all major moves, that was one of the few reasons I agreed to the role. Because the history was agreed to by all this, your point doesn't hold. Everything important was going to be made public.

You won't know this, but I'm currently a member of a demogame team that has been forced to improvise wildly to stay in the game, and I agree fully to everything that I have created being made public knowledge at the end of the game. And with Templars, nothing they did can be considered advanced, or even sensitive...you may think that is a troll, or a flame, but that is just my expert opinion.

Bull****. Oh, and failure, on oh so many levels.

I mean a very simple thing: either open the forum (minus private stuff, ie leaving the turn threads, the diplomacy threads etc) so everyone can read it, or I will do the job that everyone agreed was mine to the letter. Technically it's bribery, as I'm required to write a history that will not reflect well on the Templars skill or diplomacy simply because it'll be honest, and I'm offering not to.

The only reasonably active member was Hercules, and I don't know where he is. And enjoy searching, but ultimately you'll see the issue wasn't raised as one of the 30+ options at the start of the game, and the sole admin for this game has already made a ruling. You really aren't doing Poly much good trying to ride roughshod across appointed game admins.

Υou're a waste of time mate...

[Krill]

Careful with the flames, pet...what with the owner here and all.

EDIT: So no retorts? I take it you accept my position then?

[RobWorham]

In my opinion private forums should remain private. Let Krill write his history, as agreed upon by all, but respect peoples privacy if that is what they wish.

There has been enough bad blood in the past regarding Poly DG's, let's not start it up again. It does no favours for Poly or Civ in the long term....

[conmcb25]

OK, I understand your viewpoint. But what you still haven't explained is why your team wants to keep the forum closed and why specifically you have deleted all of your posts. I mean, just what exactly is in that forum? All this secrecy for what? I can assure you that there is nothing anyone can say in a team thread that would offend me, and that I'm sure goes for the rest of RB and I suspect the other four teams.

Well to be honest at this point, since you seemed to find this whole incident so amusing, I really don't feel the need to offer an explanation.

I'm well within the rules of the site, that's all I have to say on the matter.

I deleted my posts after Krill's attempted extortion. Up to that point, I had no problem leaving them, so they could help him write whatever history he wanted to write. if he even ever needed them.

Krill can complain all he likes about that but it would have never happened without his actions of the last couple of days. So ask Krill not me.

My position remains the same. Forums stay private. Krill can write some sort of "Cliff Notes" History. I don't want to be quoted.

Based on his actions recently, I think I'm well within my rights to ask for his complete removal from this game. But I'm not going to do that. That doesn't mean I'm going to compromise any more either.

[darrelljs]

Please address this issue explicitly when when drafting the rules for the next demo game.

Darrell

[sooooo]

Well, OK. It's ridiculous, but nothing to do it seems. I don't want to tar the templars with the same "conmcb25" brush, but ... pffft. If the forum rules allow it then you seem to be able to keep your "secrets". I'll say nothing more and wait for the historian's report.