Total number of teams & minimum members limit

[Nugog]

Originally posted by Zoid
It must be a tweak to the Pitboss software surely?

I hope so.

:fingercrossed:

[Whip[lash]

Originally posted by Nugog


Would this need to be loaded as a MOD by all turn players?

It only needs to run on the host machine.

[Nugog]

Okay - sounds promising then.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Whip[lash

What I have seen is the biggest downside of the PBEM is the reload cheat. At a critical point in the game the turnplayer can simply attack with 20% odds or open that hut and be able to repeat it again, again and again until the results are the most favorable. I have seen stack battles in C3C where three wounded units captured a city defended by three healthy units. I have seen a Great Leader generated at 16% odds. This cheat is undetectable in EPBM. The fact that this cheat is available ruins the game. Even if the turn player did not cheat he will be suspected of doing so which brings up feelings of "damn, we're screwed because team XXX cheated". This cheat cannot be pulled off in PitBoss.

But Pitboss CAN be made to run WITHOUT simultaneous turns. Preventing the reload cheat, but maintaining turn order and pacing of a PBEM.

The simultaneous turns also have a drawback of double moves, which can be just as devastating as a reloaded save, and cannot always be prevented.

I happen to agree that with this many teams, though, a PBEM style format would take too long. It would be 1 turn per week at best.

All of you in favor of the faster timer seem to be well organized using chats, skype, and etc to complete your turns. Or maybe just have teams composed of people with same/similar timezones That just wouldn't work for me. Most my time on the forums here is from work. No chatting allowed.

And, using the forum alone to discuss turns, you need a longer time. Plain and simple. At a bare minimum, 24 hours would be needed to post the screens and catch people from all timezones to be able to even comment on the turn. Another slot of time for the player to actually PLAY the turn.

Yes, yes, the early "hit end turn" turns can go MUCH quicker. A longer timer does not preclude that, as once everyone hits end turn, PRESTO, it's a new turn.

So, if it's decided this game is going to use a faster timer, I'll be changing my status from lurker-and-perhaps-later-contributor to non-existant. I simply cannot be making chats and things required of a faster time.

And I'm assuming the teams must then be prioritized by schedules, who can be on at the right times, or leaving folks out. This was consitantly a problem with the single player demogames. I recall scheduling 2am chats (my time) to catch some Aussie folks who were feeling left out. I got 3 kids now, I need that sleep.


I'ld rather see a longer turn not being needed than a shorter turn forcing people to be skipped or limiting the pool of players able to make the schedule.

[Paddy]

hehehe

I remember scheduling many 2 and 3 am turn chats because several North American players wanted to be there
yeah wild times sure do run havoc on any family

I too am happy with a 72 hour timer if that is going to bring in more players

as I have discussed in other posts and threads, it is when they do not show up several turns in a row for the agreed ( 48 ) timer that rubs, adding to that they do not post any reason for delays etc...

[Aidun]

I'm in favor of a long timer.

[conmcb25]

I obviously can live with a 72 hour timer.

But in the spirit of compromise and in deference to our players with Adult ADD , I can live with 48, but no lower than that.....

[Zoid]

[ChrisiusMaximus]

72 guarentees you at least 2 turns per week, thats very good for an 8 team game, in fact thats grounbreaking !

[Beta]

Originally posted by conmcb25

.... and in deference to our players with Adult ADD , I can live with 48 ...

You talkin' to me??? Huh??

[Nugog]

Originally posted by conmcb25
But in the spirit of compromise and in deference to our players with Adult ADD , I can live with 48,

[Beta]

Originally posted by Hercules

But can we all be clear on the mechanics for DG purposes.


As I understand it:

The turnplayer would join the game. See what has happened since the last turn, post a screen save or 3, and look for comments on moves and diplomatic options (if not already forseen). The turnplayer can save/pause to consult, based on available screenshots and his/her diplo report.

What doesn't happen is that teammates can also access the turn or save, explore diplo tech / resource trades and slider options and base micromanagement, themselves and then report back to team and turnplayer. Or can they? Of course it will show on civstats I presume.

That's one approach. As Rob pointed out, it is up for each team to decide.

In the early going, if there are no surprises at the start of the turn, I would expect that the team has already discussed moves and builds, etc, and the turn player would simply log on, play the turn, make a report, and look for input for the next turn.

And yes - other players can and are encouraged to log on and take a look, but the situation and geography become familiar pretty quickly, and team members can still provide input without accessing the game each turn.

Again, this is something that we as a team need to figure out for ourselves.

Pitboss, IMHO, calls for a somewhat 'looser' governance structure than a PBEM demo game. And to me, that is not a bad thing, and more than decent trade-off for a faster game.

[Beta]

Originally posted by ZargonX
I don't think it was the timer that killed the C4WDG, but the fact that after the game started, the server was down approximately 90% of the time for the first 3 or 4 months. I know that pretty much killed my team, as no one hung around as week after week as no turns were played. I know that it has since been moved to a more reliable server, but it was far too late at that point to salvage many people's interest.

Locutus posted something earlier as well about the factors that have been stacked up against the C4WDG.

To me, the two that have done it in were the server/host issues, and secondly, the choice of maps.

Having a reliable host and a ready back-up are key. (Who is hosting this game anyway. ) And as ZX has said, that killed a lot of the interest that had been built up.

The map is a loser for a demo game. And IIRC, not the one we agreed upon. It is not conducive to early contact and diplomacy.

The turn timer - IMHO - not an issue.

The weak teams - well I for one busted my butt trying to recruit folks for the failing teams. And I still think we could beef up a few of them AND I for one still have interest in that game.

Our team is small, and some have faded, but I get input and we play our turns regularly.

Nope, this game was crippled by the hosting issues and the choice of maps. It would have been interesting to see what would have come of it had the game run reliably on a more inter-active map.

[Beta]

Originally posted by Whip[lash
Some points directed to those favoring a long timer in PitBoss or doing PBEM.

PAL has been involved in at least 3 of the prior Demo games, maybe more.

What kills player interest?

First is the EPBM is tooooo slooooow. I know you guys think we are real-time MP players who lack patience for a long game; but really two turns per week is a snail's pace, especially in the beginning of the game.

What I have seen is the biggest downside of the PBEM is the reload cheat. At a critical point in the game the turnplayer can simply attack with 20% odds or open that hut and be able to repeat it again, again and again until the results are the most favorable. I have seen stack battles in C3C where three wounded units captured a city defended by three healthy units. I have seen a Great Leader generated at 16% odds. This cheat is undetectable in EPBM. The fact that this cheat is available ruins the game. Even if the turn player did not cheat he will be suspected of doing so which brings up feelings of "damn, we're screwed because team XXX cheated". This cheat cannot be pulled off in PitBoss.

Regarding the length of the timer, I believe there is a user written program available at civfanatics that allows the PitBoss timer to be adjusted anytime during the game. We could start off fast and gradually slow down as the game progresses. The timer changes could be resolved by majority vote of the teams.

PitBoss also makes it easier on the turn player as no screen shots are needed. Any teammate can log on to the game to see the current situation. Also, if the "designated turnplayer" has not made the turn while the timer is running short another teammate can do it.

I've been hosting a PitBoss 4v4v4v4 Demo game, we are currently at 1130AD using a 22 hour timer. There rarely is a screenshot posted in the team forum and it's rare that any team/player misses a turn due to a "short" timer.

Excellent points Whip.

I am not even sure why we are still debating the pitboss vs pbem matter.

[Methos]

Originally posted by Paddy I remember scheduling many 2 and 3 am turn chats because several North American players wanted to be there

I seem to recall the one time I managed to stay awake long enough to make it to the 3 am turnchat, it was cancelled!