Total number of teams & minimum members limit

[PLATO]

Wow! I just read through this thread and I am floored! I had no idea that Locutus was so insulting.

Perhaps this is the reason that teams like ours...which were made up entirely of people who met on apolyton...are now conducting all our business off site.

Perhaps this is also a reason that so very many quality folks have left apolyton.

It saddens my heart to see what was once such a great site be torn up by those who would be king. I stay here in hope that things will return to the spirit of kindredship that so many felt back when I joined.

Locutus, I urge and implore you to be a force in uniting people on this site and to quit being divisive. Paddy has been a strong and stalwart force in DG's and PBEMs since I have been here. He doesn't deserve your ridicule.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Krill
Paddy, you should remember the at least one time that flaming and trolling lead to a damaged DG experience, and I seriously hope that you can keep your team in order so that it doesn't happen again

Please ...talk about flaming.

This is revisionist history for sure...


moving along now...

[conmcb25]

We are talking about total number of teams and minimum member limits.

The more we stick to the topic the better chance we have of this game actually completing for a change.

Lets keep that in mind folks, OK?

[Zoid]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
Here's the thing.

**** happens.

Occasionally, people cannot make a turn timer, especially a short one. For whatever reason.

Take the C4DG, and the "24 hour timer". This last turn, Sarantium took well over 48 hours, and presently the Horde is approaching 72.

Now, granted, it's in PBEM format, and no one is enforcing said turn timer. Nearly every team, if not every team in that game has gone over at some point. No big deal.

Pitboss just plain is not forgiving though. You miss the timer, you get skipped. No AI moving for you, no nothing. Just skipped. So, you lose that settler or worker to a barb, or you lose that location to a rival, or you fail to adequately defend somewhere. Because you got skipped.

Is it so shocking that a team that finds itself skipped several times has a hard time recovering interest? We invest much more in these demogames than we do a regular game. Yeah, a regular game, you get skipped a time or two, brush it off. A demogame you've been playing for a year, suddenly you get skipped a time or two and months of work are erased as a result? Not because you were outmaneuvered, or made a mistake. Just due to an arbitrary timer.

SERIOUSLY think about that. I know many playing here are on teams that have taken far more than their turn timer on several occasions in the C4DG. How would you have felt if we had just skipped you there?

I personally have SERIOUS doubts whether pitboss can sustain a demogame as a result. And am all but certain it cannot if you enforce a swift timer.

The original single player demogame in Civ 3, and several subsequent ones: Played twice a week.

Multitude of PBEM demogames, played once or twice a week.

The Warlords demogame bumped that to 3-4 times a week. It proves too swift for some of the demogame crowd, myself included, used to a long history of twice a week. Is that really a shock?

UnO, I understand that you have a lot to do and can not always be present. But Pitboss is not the same as pbem. In a way complaining that Pitboss isn't like pbem is a bit like complaining that Civ4 does things differently than Civ3 and you want to it be just like before, because you're used to that game and not this newfangled gizmos in the new game. It demands more of your time (or at least at more regular intervals) and it's supposed to do that. To guarantee a smooth flow of gameplay. But it takes some adjusting if you're used to the leisurely pace of pbem's. Sure, it sucks to be skipped. But is it really that difficult to plan one or two turns in advance if you know you're not going to make it? Build queues and automated moves may not be optimal, but it beats missing a turn.

And I think it's too early to declare Pitboss dead as MP. The C4WDG had a ****load of problems, but the enforced timer was not one of them. In fact I think that was the only thing that wasn't a problem... The format was new, it had a lenghty setup process that made people lose interest even before it started, and when it did start it was marred by connection issues and hosting problems. That lost the rest of the "casual" gamers and newbies and left just the dedicated hardcore gamers. Not a very good start and definitely not something you can judge the Pitboss format from. Personally I think Pitboss is the future of Civ, and I welcome it. The reason I'm in deep deep lurking mode in The Horde is that the pbems moved at such a snails pace I was going bonkers. But then again I might have contracted some form of ADD approaching my 40's. Some times I can't even sit still during our SC team meetings on Skype which usully lasts ½ hour to 45 minutes...

[IanDC]

Originally posted by Zoid
Personally I think Pitboss is the future of Civ, and I welcome it.

Agree 100 %

[ChrisiusMaximus]

Pitboss is definitely the way to keep games moving

One point id like to add about flaming and trolling, it funny how everyone always reckons its everyone else who does this when they dont want to listen to any one elses point of view!!

So many here run for the cupboard with all the names in when they dont think theyre winning a debate, really what is wrong with debate, even heated debate at times ?

If a thing needs to be said then it should be said clearly and concisely and the rest should be big enough to hear and reply without crying for Momma any time they dont like what they hear.

And remember actions always speak louder than words, time will show who we really can depend on to keep these games afloat, all of this here in this thread will drop away off the page soon enough.

In fact maybe time to lock this one and let it drop, perhaps start a fresh thread where everyone can say what their views are without any more pointy fingers. Perhaps a post limit too, each contributor gets 2 posts to make his/her point.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Zoid


And I think it's too early to declare Pitboss dead as MP. The C4WDG had a ****load of problems, but the enforced timer was not one of them.

I have had a long history of being a turnplayer in demogames. But have found myself incapable of doing so in the C4WDG solely due to the enforced timer. Weekends, I typically can't play. So every week, there's a turn I would have to have skipped. Yes, skipping once or twice might not seem a big deal. Skipping 1/3 of all turns quickly becomes one.

A lack of turnplayers IS a problem in the C4DG, and in this case, the timer is a contributing factor to that lack.

From what I have seen of the C4WDG, I seriously doubt anyone has encountered the kinds of situations that they'ld like more time to look over yet, either, as it's still quite early.

That is all I am saying. I'm not against Pitboss as a whole, but a nice liesurely timer allows for turns to progress slower when they need to, but does not prevent a turn from being played in 24 hours, either, if all can make it. A speedier timer only further limits the number of turnplayers that can make the timer. And number of turnplayers is what we're all so fussing about, right?

[Zoid]

I'm not convinced time was a factor in the near demise of the C4WDG. It is in many aspects a trial run. The BtSDG will hopefully be much better. Also it's always a compromise between speed and accessability when you choose the turn timer. And 48 hours seems to work for most people here...

[Aidun]

Ok well, many people here can shout it from the rooftops that Pitboss is the way to go, but this simple argument, that is increasingly looking like a standout that is threatening to destroy this game, is for me the best proof that it is actually not that ideal solution that some here claim it to be, is it?

Face it: we've played countless PBEM's since Civ3 PTW and most of them, have gone without problems. Yes, from time to time, a team surpasses the turn limit, but at least the games kept moving and everybody is having fun.

Time after time I see the same discussion being held again with some people arguing that in fact it doesn't take that much time to prepare turns and a few months later their teams are taking their time. Their argument is perhaps true 90% of the time, but those 10% are the critical moments that make the game interesting and I wouldn't want to lose those moments to some timer, even if that means that I have to wait a bit longer before it's my team's turn again.

What I find very worrisome is that now two camps are opposing each other. Old animosities playing up again, animosities that should long ago have been solved or at least burried. I'm seriously afraid that if this continues, this game will cease to be a game and become some kind of vicious contest to see who's right and who's wrong without even solving the matter for the future. Because at a future game it will again come up just like it does now.

I will let people here know in advance, and I hope there are others with me, that if this game becomes such a vicious contest, I will not play and I call on others to do the same.

So I see only one solution: we continue with the long tradition of reliable PBEM games and the opposing people make some serious effort at solving the issues they have with one another.

Else there is only one option: a boycot of this game.

Choose whichever option you prefer.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by conmcb25
We are talking about total number of teams and minimum member limits.

The more we stick to the topic the better chance we have of this game actually completing for a change.

Lets keep that in mind folks, OK?

Thanks con. Wise words, as always. Sorry.

Originally posted by Aidun
Old animosities playing up again, animosities that should long ago have been solved or at least burried.

For the most part they are indeed (and thankfully) a thing of the past. Many, many thanks to those who have helped make it that way.

************************************
Now..on topic...

The number one complaint that I have always heard is that the games move so slow that people lose interest and drift away. With Pitboss, we have a hard and fast solution to that. It is hard in the fact that teams will need multiple turnplayers to overcome issues like Uno points out.

I guess the real questions are weather or not each team will be able to supply enough turn players to ensure that they don't get skipped, and what is a reasonable amount of time for the turn timer.

If teams cannot supply the first or agree on the second, then we are back to the same format that has caused so much complaint in the first place.

So...may I suggest that we delay a firm decision on this until the teams are formed and have a full chance to discuss it and then poll the Captians for a decision?

[ChrisiusMaximus]

yes voting is the way to go

[ChrisiusMaximus]

Pitboss will ensure a game does not stall, but even with a slow timer you will get a much faster demo game than usual.

The answer is more get the timer right than force teams to have a set number of turn players, some teams will naturally need more turn players to function than others, no matter how much time they have.

I think if you get a good consensus on turn times and worry less about the make up of the individual teams you will have a good game experience.

24 hours is clearly not going to work and even 48 is perhaps difficult for some.

what is the average turn rotation for a demo game ? it varies wildly does it not, some get frustrated with slow teams but this will always happen without pitboss.

a little over 2 turns a week with a 72 hour timer seems to me reasonable and should easily work for all team compositions.

[ZargonX]

I don't think it was the timer that killed the C4WDG, but the fact that after the game started, the server was down approximately 90% of the time for the first 3 or 4 months. I know that pretty much killed my team, as no one hung around as week after week as no turns were played. I know that it has since been moved to a more reliable server, but it was far too late at that point to salvage many people's interest.

[Zoid]

Aidun, your post seems like blackmail to me. "Do as I say or I'll do my best to destroy this game!!" I sincerely hope that's not what you're saying...

And a vote is really necessary to settle this once and for all. So far only two (very vocal) people have really been interested in a 72 hour timer, Locutus and UnO...

[conmcb25]

Originally posted by PLATO


Thanks con. Wise words, as always. Sorry.

Originally posted by Aidun
Old animosities playing up again, animosities that should long ago have been solved or at least burried.

For the most part they are indeed (and thankfully) a thing of the past. Many, many thanks to those who have helped make it that way.

************************************
Now..on topic...

The number one complaint that I have always heard is that the games move so slow that people lose interest and drift away. With Pitboss, we have a hard and fast solution to that. It is hard in the fact that teams will need multiple turnplayers to overcome issues like Uno points out.

I guess the real questions are weather or not each team will be able to supply enough turn players to ensure that they don't get skipped, and what is a reasonable amount of time for the turn timer.

If teams cannot supply the first or agree on the second, then we are back to the same format that has caused so much complaint in the first place.

So...may I suggest that we delay a firm decision on this until the teams are formed and have a full chance to discuss it and then poll the Captians for a decision?

yep yep and yep

//agreed//

I would just like to add that we should encourage teams at this point to make sure they have multiple turnplayers, and if they don't, recruit a few more folks who would be willing to play turns.

And no need to be sorry, we all need a gentle reminder from time to time

And yep hatchet buried, but I still can't wait to kick GS's arse