Advanced Game 11 Discussion Thread

[RobWorham]

Advanced League Game 11 has closed for submissions. Please feel free to discuss your game in as much detail as you want. The more we talk, the more we can learn from each others successes and failures......

Just one submission this game, and a loss at that!! Just goes to show it is worth submitting even if you don't kick the AI's butt!!!

The top three :

1st : playshogi : Lost to Conquest - 1395AD - 233 points / 5892 points - LOSS

Congratulations to all those who took part in this game.

[Shalkai]

Oh, boo. Just finished, but looks like it was a couple hours late.

Congrats Playshogi! Looks like you suffered what I thought I was about to go through a few days ago.

I played it out, all 600+ turns, and actually managed a cultural victory while keeping Justinian friendly the whole game. Very wierd. I'll write it up in this discussion thread. First time I've ever managed to pull things out after being dead last at Emperor.

Ugh, now I have to finish the NEXT epic speed monster...hopefully on time.

Thanks once again, Rob and Nugog. Good stuff!

OK. I'm goin to bed!

Shalkai

[RobWorham]

Unlucky Shalkai, take solace in knowing that you picked up 4 HOF points for your continued efforts for the first quarter of 2008 Tri-League!!!!

[playshogi]

I tried to rush Stalin, but I chickened out when I saw his capital built on a hill. I just didn't have enough troops. By the time I teched to catapults, I still didn't have enough troops and by then I was losing money at 0% research. War broke out with Ragnar and captured several of his cities, most of which just bled me dry with the maintenance. Then in 1000AD Stalin and Ragnar both declared on me. I could have held out longer by conceding them each a city--leaving me with 2 and room to build 1 more, but that just seemed like a waste of time.

[Shalkai]

Stalin was a royal PITA, wasn't he? Not that Ragnar was much better.

Pre-game musings: Epic speed will be a change. Iron will be critical for HRE units - try and get two. 1/2 cost wall and castle, so build 'em. Prepare for a big medieval war w/ landsknechts, expand a bit then. Make sure to beeline COL and Eng for HRE specials. As usual, ignore early religions.

The start: settle in place, build scout, research fishing. Nice spot; seafood for miners in the hills. Sea commerce will be a big help.

First scout finds a tribe and gets gold in 3950. In 3925, he spots Stalin to the NW. Hoo, that's pretty close. In 3850, I run into a Ragnar scout. Man! Two feisty neighbors spotted by turn 7. No wide open spaces like Game 10.

I start planning my future city sites with one eye on resources, and the other on choke points and claiming territory. In 3575 I bump into a Justinian scout. Yep, things are going to be tight.

Stalin gets St Petersberg founded before I can get out a settler. Drat - I wanted that gold. My second city gets founded south of his, at a choke point, and where it can get horses. There's one border.

My third city gets founded waay SW, right at the edge of Ragnar's land. I'm two squares east of the sheep - he's two squares west. The culture battle is on. My city is destined to stay a small border city for many ages.

Soon enough, Stalin charges in with some axemen. I'm halfway ready, so he doesn't get anywhere. I build up forces, but make peace before either of us takes a city. Then Ragnar attacks in the south, again he's beaten off.

I found two more cities, and start scrambling for research points, then they come for round two. Stalin starts off, and loses his attack force. I start towards StP but have to go back on defense when Ragnar joins in. Ragnar has a poor mix of troops to hit me, so they go down, and I take his small city just SW of Prague. One bold unit heads farther on into Ragnar's lands and finds a small, undefended city. They take it and raze it after the few citizens run off (auto-raze). I make peace with Rag after that, even though he's permanently about that razing.

So, I turn my attention north, build lots of axemen, and head to StPete. Big, bloody battle, but I win. My forces head into the hills S of Moscow, but return to StPete after a few turns when Russian forces build up to numbers I'll never overcome on that hill.

My main battle now is with the Finance Minister. Costs keep rising, and research keeps dropping. CoL and Rathauses will save me...if I can ever get them. Like Playshogi, my research drops to 0% for a while, basically just a couple of scientists. My score is dropping and dropping, especially compared to Justinian. Justinian spreads Hinduism to all of us, but that doesn't make Stalin and Ragnar exactly friends. Justinian building the AP helps all of us, prod-wise.

I finally get CoL (not early enough to found Conf) and start building rathauses. Some cities are so small that it will take forever, so it's less help than you'd think. I head on up the tech path to Engineering. There's no trades available for me - Justinian is probably 15 techs ahead, and Stal/Rag don't like me enough to trade any goodies for the one thing I might know that they don't.

I finally get Machinery around 1220 (Engineering is still a dream) and my research is running between 10-20%. A few turns later, about the time I actually produce my first xbow, both Ragnar and Stalin DoW me.

This is where I just took a look at the demographics, then decided I was doomed. I was either 8th or near the bottom in everything. I let the game sit for two weeks, while I concentrated on work and got a start on Game 12.

Finally, about last Wednesday, I came back to this game. I wanted to submit something, even a loss. I certainly expect to lose some of these, so on to the gruesome finish.

Well, turns out I survive the war without losing a city. Ragnar attacks first (he must have bribed Stalin) but his stack is not very big (7 or so). A couple of reinforcements moved up, plus an archer upgraded to a xbow, stops his macemen and friends. Stalin brings down about 5 units, but they go splat on the walls of Prague while more xbowmen take target practice. Ragnar brings in one more big stack, this time mostly mounted units. I battle them in the field before his seige units can get there, then pick off the few seige/ground units.

Stalin is willing to make peace after I move up to Moscow and see I still have no chance to take it. He gives me a few gold, and we call it quits. Ragnar keeps sending a few units my way for another 15 turns, until he's finally got the message that I'm a tough nut. I pay him a few gold, and...I've survived?!?!? No cities lost, and I only lost 6-8 units while killing about four times that number. I'm still last in power, but at least my neighbors have been taken down a peg or two.

All right, I'm still probably hosed, but let's keep going. As long as Justinian doesn't jump me, I can probably beat off Stal and Rag. StPete is finally productive, some cottages have grown, and my research is up to 20% with a few gold left over. Whee! I am SO screwed on tech, but 20 turns per tech is better than 40 per.

I finally get Engineering. Heh. A little late for medieval conquests, but maybe I can take Moscow and get Stalin off my back. Build, build, build....attack. I'm hasty and clumsy moving up troops, and Stalin picks off a couple of my attackers. Not enough, though...I still have 12 or so left. He's got about 8 defenders. My 5 cats start bombarding. Next turn, they can't. Huh? No city def %? I check the news...A slave revolt! OK, that makes up for all the bad combat luck I've been having. Well, the combat luck is still bad for the cats (they all die) but decent for everyone else. Stalin is down to two wounded defenders.

Next turn, he has 5 defenders (2 wounded) but still no city defense. News reports say the mayors have bungled putting down the slave revolt. The three healthy units have no Fort. bonus, so Moscow falls. A real prize, too! It has Great Library, Colossus, Sistine, Artemis, Great Wall, and Shwedagon. I don't have all the buildings, let alone techs, needed for all of those, but I got 'em! My forces heal up and head north to Novgorod, to finish off the mainland Russians...and Justinian calls for peace with the AP. I'm not about to take the diplo/happy hit, so peace it is. A few turns later, Stalin becomes a Justinian vassal, again peacefully.

Even with a dozen+ units in it, Moscow goes thru revolt after revolt early on. It is probably 17-something before it is really useful. One goof I made - I was building National Epic in Prague when I captured Moscow. I should have switched NE from Prague to Moscow. In the long run, that probably would have generated one or two more GP.

I make it a priority to get optics. Espionage gets me a few techs from Stalin and Ragnar, but I have no trade partners here. A couple of caravels find everyone else, but I'm still too far behind for tech trades. I very slowly catch up, until in 1722 I learn Liberalism, which most don't have. Finally! I trade that for Theo, Music, GunP, and 1/2 of PrPress.

For the next century, I build a few cities and capture a few barbarian towns in the far islands, and concentrate on tech. Wheeling and dealing takes me from last in tech to near the top, and my score gets to the middle. Justinian and I are real buddies (he's about +15) so we have a defensive pact when he's not at war. Ragnar is pleased with me, but still won't trade. The three of us sometimes have an AP-based pact.

By 1820 I'm near the lead in tech, and trading with Just and the other leaders. A GE saved allows me to rush the SoL in 1838 - one of the few wonders I actually built.
My Friday night session ends about 3AM Sat, ~1850, turn 460 or so. Oh boy. Less than 24 hours to go, but this isn't going to be an ignominous defeat. Thanks to Moscow I'm in the lead for a Culture victory, even though I've only got one religion.

I squeeze in a few turns during the day on Saturday, but not many. Finally I get to the night, and freedom to play, around 8pm. I've only got 4-6 hours to crank out at least 150 turns towards a win. Hurry hurry! I'm still being a tech whore as much as possible - catch up, plus make friends. There wasn't much most people didn't have, but I made 'em count. Example - AssyL traded for MilSci, SciMth, Comm, and Phys. I'd avoided SciMth like the plague, because I knew it would hit my research hard. The lost wonder plus monasteries dropped almost 100 rpt from my total (1025->940)

Careful tailoring of my specialists (and a little luck) gives me the GP's to found all three culture corps. I help out Justinian in his wars (doing as little as I can) to keep him my buddy. I think one island city from Ramesses was the sum total of my aid. During the long session, I have two DoWs on me. First, Isa thinks my island cities are weak (yes, but not THAT weak). My City3Drill1 machinegun takes care of most of three transports of invaders. A nearby infantry recaptures my city 3 turns later. That's about all that happened. Later, about 20 turns from the end, Alexander attacked me since my culture was drowning his nearest cities. Bad mistake, as I was able to air-transport in plenty of troops, so he lost 4 cities real quick - plus Justinian DoW'ed him for his effontry as well (no def pact active just then - I'd forgot to renew it - he was just helping me out).

Well, I just couldn't crank out turns much faster than 30-35 an hour, so time fled by. I didn't know when the exact cutoff was (seems to be ~1 a.m. my time) so I kept on going. I had all three corps spread to my key cities by ~1930, and in all of my cities by 1966. Moscow grew to be such a cultural powerhouse that it passed up Prague, my 2nd city, and even caused revolts in Novgorod, the new Russian capital. Once I was near the top in tech and had culture corps spread, I ramped up the culture slider, first to 40%, then to 50% at the end.

I popped off one hoarded GA to hurry my third city up by 9 turns or so, then kicked off a 3-GP Golden Age with 10 turns to go just for the heck of it. It helped out culture a teensy bit (due to the extra commerce) but I mostly did it to end on a high note.

Finally, cultural victory in 1976. About 02:30 my time...oh well! Heck of a game! I rushed to send in my save and replay, just in case, then checked the forum...nope, they didn't sleep in. No points for Shalkai, but one gem of a game.

Real moral of the story? Don't give up, even when you're in last place at Emperor difficulty. I had no idea how much those few Level 5 crossbows would kick a** and save my bacon. It took forever to get out of the tech hole, but it was possible. Eventually, patience paid off, cottages grew, rathauses were built, and there was a decent tech rate. Once I got a single tech I could trade, it was game on - there were only about 10 techs between 8th and 3rd spot.

Emperor difficulty is still causing me struggle and stress every time. This game counts as a DNF because I avoided the stress and let it sit too long. I'm learning, though, every game. Let this AAR report show you all that its worth playing to the bitter end...you just might have a chance, after all.

If anyone wants, I've got a couple of saves filed away. You can try this out yourself from the (seemingly) hopeless 1200's if you're feeling masochistic, sometime.

Shalkai

[RobWorham]

Great write up Shalkai!!!

Thank you very much for a most entertaining read!!!

FYI, We usually close games around 19.00 NZ time, that's 06.00GMT (ish) at the moment. We switch back to winter time this coming weekend......

[Compromise]

Awesome writeup, Shalkai! And rather inspiring for future games too!

[Nugog]

Awesome write up Shalkai!