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**Robert** · December 17, 2007, 05:07

Congrats to the winner and the #2 and #3!
Now you winner guys come over to the advanced league, we need some fresh flesh there

(please don't go there to prevent me from winning again though

)

**KMoore** · December 18, 2007, 10:32

Sorry CyberShy. I'm having a hard time with game 6 at the intermediate setting.

**KMoore** · December 18, 2007, 10:40

I’ve never had a conquest victory in BTS so I decided from that start I would take advantage of domination being disabled and go after conquest. I also wanted to capitalize on Qin Shi Huang’s Industrious trait to build many wonders in the capital to generate Great Persons that would be settled to make a mega production / science city.

With an early rush in mind, I set out exploring and was disappointed to find my closest neighbor, Zara Yaqob, so far away to the south. After discovering that the only bronze in sight was near him and far away from me, I rushed my first settler next to the bronze and settled near Zara’s borders. A second city near the first blocked him off from any Northern expansion and gave me plenty of time to fill in the rest of the rather sizable continent. Faced with the decision of early war far from my capital or expansion and wonder production, I chose the latter –for about 5000 years! I built Stonehenge, The Great Wall, Pyramids, Oracle, Hanging Gardens, Colossus, Parthenon, Great Library, Statue of Zeus, Shwedagon Paya and University of Sankore while growing to eight cities and building a military of Cho-Ko-Nus, Macemen and Trebuchets for the upcoming war with Zara. During this time, the capital produced and settled 4 Great Prophets and 2 Great Engineers, which were giving a nice boost to gold, production and beakers (thanks to Representation).

I declared war on Zara in 1320 AD and eliminated him in 1550. All Ethiopian cities were kept and during the war 2 additional cities were settled in the north while Angkor Wat and Notre Dame were built. During the war, two Great Generals surfaced who were also settled in the Chinese capital, and a Great Scientist founded an Academy in the capital.

With 5 more civs to subdue and Cho-Ko-Nus threatened with Obsolescence, I was eager to move quickly to the next war. It was difficult to decide between Sitting Bull to the east and Suleiman to the west. Sitting Bull was pleased with me and we shared a religion but my Navy was weak and he was only one coastal square away. I had decided to attack Sitting Bull and was building Galleons for transport when Suleiman declared an unprovoked war on me in 1625.

I researched Military Science via Liberalism slingshot in 1675. It wasn’t long before Grenadiers were rolling over Ottoman cities defended by longbowmen and Musketmen. After taking 5 very productive cities, including the capital, Istanbul, Suleiman capitulated in 1848.

Fueled by an ever increasing technology advantage, The Chinese war machine was rolling now. The troops invaded Sitting Bull as soon as they could be repositioned. One group started at the top of his continent and one at the bottom. The war started in 1888 and he capitulated in 1913. In the meantime, Beijing had added the Taj Mahal, Pentagon, Broadway and the Kremlin to its wonder collection. With the help of Iron Works and the Industrious trait, it built most wonders in 4 turns or less. If I remember correctly, the Internet took six turns later on.

Jao had been my primary rival for some time. He had always been first or second in population, land, score and power. I prioritized flight for the airlift capability and attacked his neighbor, Genghis Khan, so I could establish a base of operations for the larger war to come. The war with Genghis only lasted from 1927 - 1936 before he capitulated. I captured four or five cities during that time and began to airlift units in for the big war against Jao.

Between 1924 and 1935, Beijing completed Three Gorges Dam, Cristo Redentor and Rock and Roll.

In the meantime, Boudica, on the same continent with Jao and Genghis, vassalized to Jao. This meant I would have to fight on two fronts at once. This was no problem as it was to be modern armor, bombers and, eventually, mechanized infantry against riflemen, muskets and longbows.

The war with Jao began in 1945. Although he never had a chance, Jao was stubborn and wouldn’t capitulate until 1962 when I took his last city on the continent. Boudica renounced Jao and was willing to capitulate to me in 1958, but she only had 3 cities left so I decided to take them all. Her last city fell the same year Jao capitulated – 1962.

That just left Roosevelt, Sitting Bulls original colony of 4 cities. I loaded up my transports with Modern Armor and finished him off in 1970, two turns after declaring war.

I ended up with 60 cities which produced 2500 beakers, 250 gold and 450 Eps per turn. Although I had a lot of cities, Beijing was always the Chinese lynchpin. I built 18 wonders, all but one in Beijing and they produced 16 great people even though I seldom ran specialists. All Great Persons were settled except two that were used for a late golden age, one scientist for an academy and one general for a military academy. The settled great person’s contribution per turn was 35 gold, 17 hammers, 12 Eps and 72 beakers before any multipliers. In addition to the wonders mentioned previously, I also built the Eiffel Tower, Statue of Liberty, Hollywood and Cristo Redentor. Beijing was producing level 5 military units thanks to six military instructors together with Theocracy, Barracks and Pentagon. It was great fun to roll out a modern armor every turn with CR3 and barrage.

It was a fun game, but I have to say I won’t be going after another conquest victory anytime soon. It was a lot of micro management long after the outcome was certain. I’m a slow player anyway, but when it was all over, I had spent 21 hours and 37 minutes playing this game. I’m sure that if we calculated score per minute, I’d probably be last. Mine works out to 23 points per minute played, by the way. I hope my wife doesn’t see this. She wouldn’t look kindly on my spending 21 hours on a single game. Oh well, at least I got my conquest victory!

Thanks again to Nugog, RobWorham and the others who organize this. It’s a lot of fun. Thanks also to everyone who writes a report of their games. Reading different approaches to the same game makes this interesting for me.

**RobWorham** · December 18, 2007, 13:05

Originally posted by KMoore

Thanks again to Nugog, RobWorham and the others who organize this. It’s a lot of fun. Thanks also to everyone who writes a report of their games. Reading different approaches to the same game makes this interesting for me.

You're welcome KMoore, and I agree, reading the end of game reports rocks!!!

**draethor** · December 18, 2007, 16:29

Hats off to you for the conquest victory. I figured it would be the most difficult victory type to achieve.

My game was actually entirely different! It was the first civ game I've ever played where I was never in a war.

My game sounds similar to most of the starting ones here. I dismissed the idea of a Conquest victory given the settings, I figured it would be extremely difficult. I also didn't realize that vassalizing everyone = a conquest win! Whoops. Still wouldn't have chosen it though.

I decided to shoot for a cultural victory almost at the start. I didn't feel I had much chance for the early religions, so I didn't bother. I did miss Judaism by a couple turns which was too bad, but I did found every other religion and spread them very aggressively. Towards the end of the game I was able to run 100% culture at a profit (without wall street which would've been another 63 gpt - double holy city ftw).

I spread out wonder construction evenly over the 3 cities I deemed would become my legendary cities. I think I probably chose one poor city, it was in the jungle area which I made a priority to clear and cottage over, but another one of my cities had 36k culture at the end of the game, and this is without any cathedrals. The spreading out of wonders strategy mostly paid off, but I missed some important wonders (great library and spiral minaret) as a result. Still managed to build 19 out of the 30 wonders built in the game.

Between choosing a better site for my 3rd city and working harder to specialize artists, I probably could've pushed this win down to the very early 1800's, but on the whole I'm pretty happy with this game. Finished it in record time too, which I mostly attribute to the fact that I was never in a war.

**Shalkai** · December 18, 2007, 16:53

AAR part 1

Just call me the procrastinator....

Seriously, I'm always finishing at the end for lots of reasons. The biggest one is that I'm starting each game less than two weeks from the end (I shoulda skipped game 3 and just played game 4 when I discovered the Tri-League, but I LOVE the Dutch!). Also, I love corporations. When you spread 4 religions and 3 corps to 30+ cities, the end-game gets real slow. RL has a habit of interrupting at the most inopportune times. And, finally, I'm just a slow-poke. I really plod when I'm fighting wars - getting better with practice, though.

OK, on to my AAR. In the beginning...we have Qin, in what looks like a really nice starting spot. ChoKoNu are nice for an early war, pavilions are great culture. Industrious means extra wonders (I like

) = more culture, great people, etc. Protective means tough defensive troops = safety from barbs and aggressive AI.

So, reviewing things before play, we make the General Plan: forget conquest, I won't have enough time to fight that much. That leaves Cultural and Diplomatic, either of which should be easy enough. I'll keep options open for both as well as I can during play. Expand quickly, get archers early (especially since they're turbo-charged with Protective) to help with barbs.

The Guiding Spirit Qin sends the first warrior wandering off south, while Beijing produces Warrior, Workboat, Warrior, Worker, Settler. Shanghai is founded just SE of Beijing by all the blue plants, while the warriors report in. South has lots of jungle, then eventually some hills with good spots for cities, and after that some dark-skinned, peaceful, industrious folk that could be a threat. The warrior to the north reports a few dangerous animals, a lot of sand, and a few fair spots for cities but no good ones.

Qin ponders for a time, then orders the Chinese to act. Beijing is told to produce a barracks (crack!), then more warriors. The warrior band in the south is told to ambush and capture some of the dark ones, and make them work for the Chinese. (This was a very unusual move for me - I almost never do any worker poaching, but Zara needed something to slow down his GNP, my warriors were better than his, plus this would get me a worker for the blocking city I'd be planting ASAP just north of him.) So, they ambush and enslave some of these strange, threatening ones, and the warriors snuck south.
The sneaky Chinese ran into Ethiopian warriors before they found more workers, or a real city. The strong and crafty band of Chinese easily defeated the dark-skinned warriors. They were then amazed (a.k.a. random event) when dark-skinned women came out of the trees and began binding up their wounds, as well as those on the few dark-skinned fighters left on the ground. The local villagers hosted and feasted the Chinese war-band, and there the local chief convinced the Chinese that the Ethiopians had no wish, not even a thought, of threatening the Chinese. They wanted only peace. The warriors brought this news back to Beijing, and Qin gladly accepted peace with his southern neighbors - at least for a time. For not even the gods can know what the future holds.

(This was priceless - My warrior hung around for a few turns on the border until a unsuspecting worker wandered up to build a camp, then he pounced. Next turn, my new worker headed north to start building roads, while warrior moved SE into jungle, hoping to find Z's city. A Chinese warrior attacked my promoted warrior, in jungle, and got smacked down. I grin, then up pops random event. "Native people treat your wounded soldiers with compassion..." etc. Only one choice, accept "chance for peace?" Next, up pops the diplo screen. Accept peace? Hmmm, sure. I'm not likely to get anything more this early. I'll take my worker, build my blocking cities, and bide my time.)

More later...gotta run.

Shalkai

**KMoore** · December 18, 2007, 18:07

Thanks Draethor. Kudos on your impressive very early win. I'm suprised that such a quick win didn't produce a higher score.

I had been contemplating how to get a higher score, as I've usually just focused on winning in the easiest / funest manner. My first two games in this series were space victories with pretty low scores.

I don't know for sure, but it seems like population, area controlled and time are the big three variables impacting score. It does indeed seem hard to get a high score without substantial war mongering.

**draethor** · December 19, 2007, 02:27

Yeah I think war mongering is essential. I played the novice version of this game later (just to see how early I could get a cultural win, hehe) and pulled it off in 1735, but it was only a score of 27k.

Granted the difficulty plays a role, but I have another warlord win in my hall of fame that's domination on the same size map that's worth 40k. Next few games I'm going to war!

**RobWorham** · December 19, 2007, 12:56

Time permitting, in the new year, we will be looking at trying to factor more things into the final score to allow for more styles of play......

**draethor** · December 20, 2007, 18:07

Eh, I think score is still probably the best way of doing things. From what I've seen elsewhere, it just becomes too complicated, or open to exploitation, or incendiary to do otherwise. I don't mean to sound like I'm complaining here. I'm having a ton of fun with the games and appreciate the work you guys are putting into them

I haven't really been pushing myself to improve my game much so far anyway (I've always been the most comfortable with peaceful wins) so I really shouldn't deserve to be higher.

But no worries! Just my opinion

**Saygame** · December 23, 2007, 03:38

My game started very similar to K. Moore's. First, tho I only used one settler to set up a southern blocking position from Ethiopia in the south. Since the blocking square wasn't a harbor coast, I realized it was a sacrifice of a potential good city with only 1 food per tile but the isthmus block, as KM said, enabled wide continent expansion AND captured bronze. So my southern blocking city was my second city created. That slowed down my gold production but gave me relative comfort at exploration.
My third workboat, with open borders secured, became a coastal scout and gave me one third of the way to a round world. Concentrating later on caravels, it was easy to secure that extra movement point per boat I knew I would need in a future naval war.
Besides I was uneasy at not knowing the remainder of the world and the caravels let me find the Mongols, Portuguese and Celts.

Because I was late on the draw to cottages and late on gold in general I also built the Great Wall early to get a great spy with which to steal techs I was behind in. That worked well, netting me three techs as I recall. I also built the Pyramids to get a population advantage (representation) so I could climb back into the tech race. That all worked well. To further increase my pop lead I went and got Hanging Gardens. I also took Notre Dame for pop advantage later, too. I lost out on Colossus and Apostolic Palace. Curses! I had founded no religion and was gonna have to conquer one for the gold. That or any early corporation.
I also picked up Chichen Itza as I beleived some war would prolly be fought on my soil. Lastly I picked up the Mausoleum, which the AI usually is fairly slow on. That I usually can parlay into being the first to liberalism with. And then Nationalism for Taj Mahal. As I recall, it was 12 turn, back to back, golden ages pushing me out into the tech lead. I even adopted Mercantilism (in and out with free Golden Age) to supercharge my great people production. There were few overseas routes anyway! I almost never use mercantilism. Wild!

I neglected the northern tech route in favor of the war techs in the southern tech path since I felt the culture victory possibilities slipping away and war was imminent.
Still, I wanted to keep my UN options open and all three of my nezt door neighbors loved me. Problem was I had to be on the lookout too for a religious victory and Suleiman was the AP resident. Arggh!
In finality Ethiopia attacked in 1700 (and my second golden age I initiated in 1705 in response). Caught unawares, I had to fight a defensive offensive campaign. After fighting the invaders to a standstill, I counterattacked and took his capital, Aksum, in 1800 and Gondar in 1814 before calling a truce. Time was rapidly slipping away. Having cut Ethiopia in two, she created England on the island to my west. This encouraged me to prepare for the next war with a much reduced Ethiopian power. I attacked in 1884. Late, for sure. By 1894 the Ethiopians were completely subdued and 1898 the English too. In 1901 General De Gaulle was appointed colony director of the now enlightened English. There was no sense in keeping small unproductive cities to fatten my maintainence rates at home.
Now I decided (fairly late in the game) to build a navy and go attack someone who didn't like me to preserve my UN possibilities from my neighbors.

In 1910 we brought the hammer down, far away, on the weak Boudica and her Mongol vassal by sea. Immediately Sitting Bull and her vassals Roosevelt and Tokagawa join forces with Boudica and the Mongols against us. Its four to our two now.

In 1910 and 1911 Celtic Vermalion and Tartar fall to valiant Chinese forces and are placed under the able direction of Justinian for our second overseas colony. Justinian receives infantry garrisons and enters the war. It's four to three now.

Chinese economy goes to total war economics, and the following wild and wooly events ensue:
1912 Suleiman (Ottoman) joins our war against Sitting Bull
1912 : Ning Hsia (Boudica) falls to Chinese
1912 Karkorum (Boudica) falls to Chinese
1913 Tabriz (Mongols) falls to Chinese
1914 New Serai (Mongols) falls to Chinese
1914 Xian (China) falls to Native Americans in Naval Invadion
1915 Samarquan (Mongols) falls to Chinese
1915 Xian recaptured by Chinese
1916 Changqing (China) captured and razed by Mongols
1917 Turfan (Celts) captured by Chinese
1918 Navajo (Mongols) captured by Chinese
1918 Boudica capitulates and joins Chinese against Sitting Bull
1918 Mongols become free state and join war with Chinese against Sitting Bull
1918 Moundville (Sitting Bull) captured by Chinese
1923 Jao (Portugal) joins war against Sitting Bull
1923 Sitting Bull knocks last Mongol city out of war
1923 Sitting Bull and Chinese Empire sign truce while Jao and Suleiman fight on
1923 Justinian is ceded all Chinese conquests with exception of one island city base east of Boudica.
1924 Suleiman signs peace accord with Sitting Bull

My purpose had been to get the Ottomans and the Portugese to hate the number two, Sitting Bull, (to us Chinese) so their UN votes would be mine. Unfortunately they Sitting Bull fell too far in the score and would have to be eliminated so........

1934 The full Chinese empire (DeGaulle, Justinian, Boudica and China) re-join Jao in his continuing war against Sitting Bull

1934 Cahokia (Sitting Bull Capitol) falls to Chinese
1935 Chaco Canyon (Sitting Bull) falls to Chinese
1935 Snaketown (Sitting Bull) to Chinese
1936 Suleiman again enters war against Sitting Bull
1937 Etowah (Sitting Bull) falls to Chinese
1939 Povety Point (Sitting Bull) falls to Chinese
1939 Mesa Verde (Sitting Bull) falls to Chinese
1940 Mound City (Sitting Bull) falls to Chinese
1941 Spiro (Sitting Bull) falls to Chinese
1941 Nagodoches (Sitting Bull) falls to Chinese
1942 Naneh Wayhi (Sitting Bull) falls to Chinese
1942 Sitting Bull signs Peace with Chinese Empire
Jao and Suleiman fight on
1942 Chinese redeploy to ships and sail towards Ottoman
1944 Chinese found UN
1948 Chinese empire attacks Ottoman
1948-1957 11 Ottoman towns fall to Chinese
1957 Ottomans capitulate
1958 UN votes Qin Emperorer for life

Mistakes made in this scenario:
1. Almost fell too far behind in gold early by ignoring cottages
2. Became wonder dependent to catch up
3. Independent economic and wonder development of my continent lasted too long and I almost lost the ability to use technology to militarily conquer
4. Miscalculated who the other UN competitor would be 5. Wasted valuable time sailing to attack weak far away

Lessons Learned in this scenario:
1. Nugog and Rob like to make you work and travel for metal
2. Colonies need to be used early in contrast to reduce maintainence costs vis a vis conquering opponents late for points
3. Colonies can help, and given your powerful enough technology can defend themselves freeing your forces to continue the attack.
4. Giving colonies a city at a time can give strong political attraction (20+ points)
5. Independent islands don't get colony maintainence costs until there are two together (ie....you can keep a single war base far away to upgrade at)
6. Capitulations are NOT always the way to go. Early on they help by building your score and not your maintence costs. Late game they hinder your ability to gain full point totals.
Rule of thumb is to take them when they are NOT going to be your target ever again or the game end is very very near and you want to max your points.

Good scenario....I noted the very low total points for this scenario.

Well done, Rob and Nugog! Thanks!

**Saygame** · December 23, 2007, 03:52

Sidenote: My experience is that, in general, the emphasis in scoring is so strong on population that a cultural victory or space victory, even early ones, will simple be outscored by the warmongering population gatherers amonst us, using domination or dipolmatic victory. Because of the population numbers conquered cities add to an empire's score. Sad but true, I'm thinkin.

**RobWorham** · December 23, 2007, 12:55

Nice summary Saygame!!!!

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