WONDERS (ver 2.1): Hosted by EnochF

[johnmcd]

I would like to see a new class of wonder, the Idea Wonders (suffrage, Rights of Man (an example), Copernicus, Shakespeare etc). These would use the city's science output rather than shield output for 'construction'. They would be great ideas rather than built wonders of the world (like the Great Wall) and during 'construction' there would be no contribution to the civs science pool from that city, rather it would be stored up in a special box. The shield production could build stuff as usual. It would mean that a city could be simultaneously be working toward the human genome project whilst building the Hoover Dam. It would stop some of the wonders construction methods being ridiculous.

I would also like to add my support to the world's greatest concept.

[Matthew]

The main thig I would like to see is for the happy wonders to be balanced out a bit in MP. JSB is fine, but it shouldn't be co closely coupled to MC in technology because so often one person, and quite often a single alliance will get both. This wouldn't be such a problem if there were more factors discouraging huge cive s early on ( other than happiness) because building a cathedral in 10 or 12 cities to make up for not getting MC is almost a tolerable option. But when you're dealing with 18 or 20 cities, (and whoever builds MC is a fool if he doesn't start cranking out new cities if he can), and you have to keep up at the disadvantage of having to build a cathedral in each one, it can be quite crippling. Now if MC were to come quite a bit later in the game, or were not quite so powerful, it wouldn't be so bad. (or if it had an expiration date).

[Ruinexplorer]

Having at least skimmed through the above sections, I would add my points (as a looooong time Civ 2 and MOO 2player, new-ish SMAC and Civ:CTP player).

1)We should have Wonders AND World's Greatest. Wonders should actually be useful, whereas "World's Greatest" would be somewhat useful, but more a trade booster (by making the city more famous, popular etc.) and possible a morale booster for the citizens of the city. Knowing you live in "the city with the greatest X in the world" must please some people.

2)"Idea Wonders", ie research built wonders are ESSENTIAL. I always thought it was silly that you were _building_ "Womens Sufferage" and so on. Having some wonders being produced through science or even cash output would be a good idea and bring as sense of reality and a welcome variance to proceedings.

3)Achievement wonders should also exist, as someone said, the first person to sail around the world should get some damn respect! Getting the world's largest and most accurate map might also be a wonder, the the implementation of that leaves it in doubt. Perhaps they should be simply awards with some effect possibly a temporary (though long term) one.

4)Naming wonders is a good idea, as it would help to escape from Western and America-centrism. No insult to the West or the US, but it is annoying to be building the Statue of Liberty or Michaelangelo's Cathedral if you are the Mongols or the Greeks! (As a side not I would hope there are more than four city-styles this time round... I ended up playing Civ 2 with the "Doom" mod to escape the monotony... 14 styles ala SMAC-X would be plenty).

5)I disagree VIOLENTLY that all wonders should be visble. All "World's Greatest" should be visible, but I think some people need to "think outside the box" more. This is Civ III, not Civ II with new graphics and added stuff. We need a "paradigm shift", not repetion with enhancement. Less tangaible wonders should be doable, at a cost, like, say, a surveying project like that done by Britain in the 18th-early 20th centuries, which should reveal all terrain in your territory. It's cost would vary depending on how much there was to do. The Internet is a must wonder-wise, and I'd hate too see it go just because it isn't visible. That said, silly wonders, like the pyramids, could go, and be replaced by more "realistic" ones. SMAC's secret projects are pretty good for this.

6) The is pretty out there, but I'm all for it- Wonders should be destructible! Physical ones at least. After all, the real Great Library was destoyed. You can blow up the Eiffel Tower, or the Hoover dam, you can detach the cable on the Space Elevator (which I hope will make it to Civ III... Futuretech is good), and so on. Obviously this would piss people off, and it would take less time to rebuild the wonder than it did to build it in the first place, but it would be pretty cool, and again, add a sense of reality and tension. Real-life wonders are often targeted by terrorists (almost always unsucessfully, so your diplomat/spy/probe team wiould have a hard time of things and a low chance of success, the bigger and more important the wonder the lower the chance), so it would make sense. "Worlds Greatest" should definately be destructible.

7) I also agree that different civs should be able to build the same wonders in certain cases at least. Particularly with religious/happiness wonders, which would not necessarily translate and which arguably have equals elsewhere in the world depending on what cultural perspective you look at it from.

8) I would introduce "Landmark" wonder-like features, where you could spend a certain amount to promote a landmark near your cities, like Ayre's Rock, or Mount Everest, and gain some bonus that way. This would be similar to "World's Greatest", and if a mountain is discovered by another civ to be taller than yours, or a rock bigger, they can take the title from you by spending the appropriate amount. You could also base this on SMAC-style landmarks.

9) Certain wonders are silly and should go or be modified. King Richard's Crusades for example sounds to be simply like a player switching all his cities to producing military units and going off to raid another civ not "doubling production in city which it is based in". Is it useful? Yes... Should it stay? No. Why does the Pyramids give a _granary_ in every city... A temple maybe, but a granary? That sort of thing needs ot change, IMHO.

Again, SMAC made a much better job of this, with it's Wonders being much more logical, with most of the "give an x in every city" giving an effect similar to the thing rather than being like thing itself. If you get my meaning. I'm not sure I do 8)

10)More futuristic and "could-have-been" wonders, and more obscure and non-western wonders, like Kublai Khan's "Pleasure Dome".
I'm sure we and Firaxis can come up with examples. Many of the current wonders are based on things there is only limited evidence for, and there are tonnes of exciting wonders waiting to be used.

I propose one (apparently a real one) called
"The Defenses of Archimedes", based on the bizarre but effective weapons used by Archimedes to defend his home city in Sicily.
Apparently they ranged from a variety of projectile hurlers with varying ranges to "claws" (perhaps rather like cranes) which grabbed ship and tilted them over or sunk them (pretty easy to do on a trireme-style ship). It kept the Romans at bay for two long years and really "hacked them off". Eventually the pro-peace party let the Romans in through the gates and they killed alot of the cities inhabitants, including, sadly, Archimedes himself.

"The Defenses of Archimedes" would make the city immune to sea-based attacks and give a bonus vs land attacks until made obselete, and could be gained from the Mathematics or Physics advance.

Cool, huh? I'm well pleased with it... I hope I was the first person to think of it... It seems to me perfect as a wonder as it is unique, amazing and useful. I'm suprised it hasn't been used already.

Conclusion) That's enough for now... please let me know what you think!

Oh PS! 11) "Agency" wonders are a cool idea, as are "Universal wonders" (I believe SMAC has one or two and Civ 2 has the Manhattan project). Universal Wonders should have additional benefical effects for the civ who actually owns it.



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"You're standing on my neck."

[EnochF]

Thanks, Ruin! Glad to see some people are still taking the list seriously.

[Ruinexplorer]

Just to add another wonder: Airforce One.

Obviously Airforce One is the leader of the civilization's personal Aircraft. It is more or less impossible to destroy without all-out war and allows the leader to visit other Civs safely.

I would suggest that it should be a wonder (as it is maintained and upgraded continually) which gives some kind of bonus to diplomacy, perhaps opening embassies with all nations with whom the players is not at war (opening and closing them according to war status), but certainly some kind of bonus in negotiations, as it is both a symbol of power and allows more direct contact with one's fellow leaders. It should also negate the penalties for the HQ city being taken over, at least for certain Gov. types, as the leader should automatically escape and be able to maintain contact with his other cities.

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"You're standing on my neck."

[mwaf]

sorry for not reading through this to check if the same idea has come up before.....


Great wall
A concrete wall on the map, place after wonder built, can be built further if done directly after wonder complete (not after that), a wall that can't be crossed (exception: diplomat/spy), can be destroyed if attacked with cannon or better unit (of same type, not cavalry for example).

[Melboz]

I think some wonders should be like the wall idea. Something similar to landmarks in smac, only man-made! These would be captureable. Example: Panama Canal. Causes a nice gate between continents, if you can hold it!

Good luck all you programers at assenbling this data. This game looks like a great one!

[Ribannah]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Ecce Homo on 09-03-1999 04:29 AM</font>
Mark Everson wrote that Wonders counting as one improvement in each city should be disable-able (?), as they are unbalanced. I agree. The effects of a Wonder/WG should be limited to the host city.
1999).]</font>
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
I absolutely disagree. Instead, building an empire of a great many cities should be discouraged, for instance by slowing down early growth.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[EdwardTKing]

I have some ideas about LandMarks/Projects/Wonders.

As described here they all assume CIV3 is like CIV2.
Clearly they would require some translation for CIV3.


LANDMARKS may be built at points on the map; other than cities, by sending settler/engineer to a point and then sending caravans/freight to a point to accumulate necessary shields. A landmark would have a minimum build time (which might be decreased by having multiple engineers etc) in addition to a shield input.
Landmarks would have a specific geographical impact.
A Landmark would belong to the last civilisation on the landmark square (rather like an airbase/fortress). Construction of a landmark would be an alternative to a fortress or air base; so you would have similar dilemmas: build it on a mountain (take longer but be defensable or on grassland - more likely to be captured!. Landmarks could not be built within 2 squares of any city. This would force you to defend them; battles for landmarks (change from fighting for cities!) would have a value in themselves unlike airbases or fortresses. Furthermore the ICS fanatics won't be able to build them if their cities are too dense!

PROJECTS once built are independent of cities; they can be built by perhaps requiring 3 cities to each build a project stage. If you have perhaps two stages built; and then another tribe finishes its third stage; your two built stages might be perhaps randomly lost or stored for another project.

WONDERS are as known to us all.


1. LANDMARK "Ascent of the Prophet"

This can only be built on hills or mountains. It increases the effect of Temples and Cathedrals by

+ 1 happies for cities in 8 squares; but
+ 2 happies for cities in 5 squares; and
+ 3 happies for cities in 3 squares of Ascent.

2. LANDMARK "Casino/Las Vegas"

Each turn there is a 5% chance that each of your opponents tribes will visit and if they visit

10% chance have to auto- sell all
(of a random improvement) to pay gambling debts)
10% chance give you all their gold
10% chance give you 25 of their gold
10% chance give you 10% of your gold; but
10% chance they win 10% of your gold off you

The effectivemess of the Casino may depend where
it is built. Extra effective in desert or oasis.

3. LANDMARK "Disneyland"

Increases Effect of Entertainers by

3 for cities within 3 squares of Disneyland
2 for cities within 6 squares of Disneyland

or perhaps it just creates happy citizens.

4. LANDMARK "Grave of the Unknown Soldier"

Increases Hit Points of each of your units by:

1 for units within 4 to 5 squares of the Grave
but 2 for units within 3 squares of the Grave.

5. LANDMARK "Judgement Jail/Punishment Penitentiary"

This really frightens bad guys in the neighbourhood decreasing crime by:

1 for cities within 8 squares, but
2 for cities within 5 squares; and
3 for cities within 3 squares.

6. LANDMARK "Many Worlds/Quantum Node"

Increases science (due to electron probability idea leakage between scientists and their counterparts in other realities) by

1 for each scientist within 8 squares; but
2 for each scientist within 5 squares; and
3 for each scientist within 3 squares.

7. LANDMARK "Pleasure Palace"

This provides happy citizens:

1 for cities within 8 squares, but
2 for cities within 5 squares; and
3 for cities within 3 squares.

Perhaps it should provide 2, 4 & 6 happies, but
remove religious (Temple or Cathedral) Happies
on the basis that the pleasures of the flesh in
this world are incompatible with the happiness of preparing for the afterlife?

8. LANDMARK "RadarControl"

Increases Fire Power of Fighters and Stealth Fighters
in Air to Air Combat by:

1 for combat within 6 squares of RadarControl; but
2 for combat within 2 squares of RadarControl.

This would apply to Fighters attacking Bombers or
when being bombed on airbases or Cities. There would be no change with ground units.

9. LANDMARK "Treasury"

This increases the effect of Tax Collectors by:

1 for each taxman within 8 squares; but
2 for each taxman within 5 squares; and
3 for each taxman within 3 squares.

but be careful where you build it. If another tribe captures it off you; you lose half your gold to them!


10. PROJECT "AirforceOne"

Enable you to move palace to any of your cities.

11. PROJECT "Accountants Academy"

You receive half the one off initial trade bonus
when other tribes send you caravans/freights!

12. PROJECT "Camp David/Carter Memorial"

Doubles the probability that another tribe will make peace with you in negotiations and gives you a new menu option enabling you to propose that two other tribes make peace.

13. PROJECT "Fifth Column/Quisling/Subversion"

Half the trade output of the most wealthy two cities of your enemy (or enemies) would be diverted to you.

14. PROJECT "GoldenGate Bridge"

Enables Engineers in boat to build a road and even a railroad across the ocean.

15. PROJECT "Lawyers Logic"

This might halve the amount AIs demand off you; and double what they will pay (whether funds area available or not?) in tribute. For humans it might
means that every time your human opponent initiates
negotiations they have to pay you 5% of their gold.

16. PROJECT "Panama Canal"

Enables Engineers to convert low lying squares; e.g. Grassland/Plain/Swamp to sea. This means you can build as canal across an isthmus or connect a land locked city to the sea. (I hate having a land locked city with sea squares for which you can not build a Harbour or an Offshore Platform!)

17. PROJECT "Religious Tolerance"

Enables you to have two temples or two cathedrals
in your cities.

18. PROJECT "DDay"

Enables all land units to amphibious assault.

19. WONDER "Cold Fusion"

This might increase moves of modern vehicles (Armour, Freight, Mechanised Infantry) by two. This might apply generally (Magellan's land version) or just for units built in Wonder City.

20. WONDER "Convention Capital"

There is a random chance that other tribes' caravans or freights will forget their orders and head for your city and on arrival give you 50% of the time gold or other 50% contribute to your production.

The probability of diversion might be:

5% for caravans/freight within 10 squares
10% for caravans/freight within 8 squares
...
90% if one square away.

Humans could change orders after diversion; but AIs?

21. WONDER "FreeSpeech or Article nn of Constitution"

This would double the cost to your opponent's of
bribing your cities and/or units. It might double cost of city going into disorder too?!

22. WONDER "International Court of Justice/World Court"

This might halve the amount AIs demand off you; and double what they will pay (whether funds area available or not?) in tribute. For humans it might
means that every time your human opponent initiates
negotiations they have to pay you 5% of their gold.

23. WONDER "World Trade Organisation"

Enables Host City to Have 6 Caravan Routes
or perhaps just trebles the impact of trade routes.

----------------------------------------------------

As CIV3 will be very different from CIV2; I have not drawn up any enabling technologies and possible obsolescence of LandMarks/Projects or new Wonders.
Some would depend upon government. For example
accountant would not function under communism or despotism, lawyers would not work under despotism or monarchy while free speech would be suspended under fundamentalism. Fundamentalism might boost the Ascent of the Prophet.


What do you think??

[OzzyKP]

I'm not a regular in the Civ 3 idea forum, so this may have been covered before, but a wonder i have always thought would be a good idea is a Transcontenental Railroad wonder that would upgrade all roads in the builder's civilization to railroads. It would be a more appropriate wonder to go along with rail road than darwin's voyage.

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“Dear Mother
Dear Father
Every thought I’d think you’d disapprove
Curator
Dictator
Always censoring my every move
Children are seen but are not heard
Tear out everything inspired”
- Metallica “Dyers Eve”

[OzzyKP]

One more idea that i just came up with while skimming through some of these posts is to have a Famous Person or cultural icon that you could build. They would have functions like a wonder but would be very expensive units. These units could opperate like normal units but would give benifits to whatever city the unit was in or whatever civilization owned the unit.

The units would be famous people through time, like someone could build a Leonardo Da Vinci, or a Shakespere, or an Albert Einstein. And the units themselves would function like wonders and confer special benifits like a wonder.

I think this would offer a bit more realism to the game regarding famous people, rather than having a "Shakespeares theater" you could instead build shakespeare. The unit could be killed or bribed (though very expensive) or captured in a city.



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Dear Mother
Dear Father
Every thought I d think you d disapprove
Curator
Dictator
Always censoring my every move
Children are seen but are not heard
Tear out everything inspired
- Metallica Dyers Eve

[OzzyKP]

And will these ideas really have any effect upon the new game whatsoever or are we just talking fantasy? Are the game developers actually going to read this stuff?

[DarkCloud]

Lucasfilm and the Natural Wonders should NOT be able to be built.

P.S. How is Lucasfilm of all things a Wonder!?!?

[Theben]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by OzzyKP on 09-23-2000 04:05 AM</font>a wonder i have always thought would be a good idea is a Transcontenental Railroad wonder that would upgrade all roads in the builder's civilization to railroads. It would be a more appropriate wonder to go along with rail road than darwin's voyage.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I did suggest a while back the "Trans-Siberian Railroad". The effect I asked for was 1/2 construction time for RR's and to have all of your cities on that continent (or all your cities on all continents) immediately connected by rail. donDon's suggestion to de-link RR's from regular roads would make this much more powerful as well.

But your idea sounds good too.

AFAIK, what we're doing right now is fleshing out possible ideas for when (hopefully) Firaxis comes back and says, "These are our rough ideas which we plan to incorporate," at which time discussion will shift to what we want those ideas to look like in the game. Until then all discussion options are open.

Sound pointless? That didn't stop us before back when we didn't know if anyone was listening or if even there would be a civ3. The feedback we've gotten so far is unheard of in the gaming industry. And recall yin26's maximum, "If just one idea makes it into civ3..." we've accomplished a lot. And we have.

[Internationalist]

If olympics is going to be a wonder, my suggestions:Old Olympics would give all military units of the keeper the ability to bypass city walls.Modern Olympics would make all civs every 10-15 turns to cease fire for 1-3 turns(military units cannot attack).Also it would giv a random civ(different every time) 15% more credits than it should generate normally(the Hosting City effect).