CITY IMPROVEMENTS (ver2.0): Hosted by CyberShy

[Bigcivfan]

This was the best place I could find to place this posting. How about being able to have different types of cities. There is the basic city. You can also build, say, villages, which are limited to size 3, don't have any upkeep, limited to what improvements it can have, but give a certain amount of food to the closest city. Also possible is a military outpost. An expansion of the fortress idea. In games of civII I would build cities in strategic spots (penninsulas, mountains) A military base cannot grow and is very limited in improvements, but recieves big defensive bonuses and can do certain actions (bombard enemy, etc.) that regular cities cannot. Any more ideas on this would be good....

[Flavor Dave]

"You can also build, say, villages, which are limited to size 3, don't have any upkeep, limited to what improvements it can have, but give a certain amount of food to the closest city."

This sounds exactly like building a city, then building food caravans there until it hits food stasis at size three. Then the food caravans do what you're suggesting.

BTW, what problem are you trying to address from Civ 2? If you're trying to prevent civs from building those stupid "spite cities" right in the middle of your empire (Man, I hate that;-), then borders should do the trick.

Your other idea could be solved this way--allow a civ to build an airfield and a fortress in the same square. It doesn't make logical sense, to me, that the game won't let you do this, it isn't realistic. And it seems bad for gameplay, too--it allows you the option of building a really powerful military outpost. Since you can't do this, war is limited to pure defensive, or attacking the cities. It would be sort of a modern enhancement to siege warfare. Put a fighter and a bomber there, allow fighters to escort, or bombers to return, and put a MI and a tank or artillery. This would effectively control an area. Once established, the AI couldn't have units out in the open, unless it established its own airfields and achieved air superiority.

Realistic, AND adds a neat option for you.

<font size=1 color=444444>[This message has been edited by Flavor Dave (edited June 19, 1999).]</font>

[VaderTwo]

I don't know if this was mentioned in the first list, but having seen it frequently in the multiplayer, something has to be done with the Infinite City Sleeze problem, where players build tons of small cities to take advantage of the squares used=city size + 1.

A possible solution to this would be to require one or more upgrades to your capital.

You would start off with a palace which would place a limit on the amount of cities that you could build and a certain radius where any cities outside that radius would receive considerably more corruption and waste.

In the middle ages/renaissance, the palace would be replaced by a later structure that would increase the limit on cities and increase the corruption/waste radius.

That structure could then be replaced by a third structure in modern times that would eliminate the limit on the amount of cities.

[Ecce Homo]

AIMB in the Wonders thread, NotLikeTea's Animal 57 seems to be the same thing as the Beef Vat in CtP.

[crusher]

Cybershy-Just want to let you know that I was the one that created a use for the library.

My Name didn't appear


------------------
"War does not determine who is right,It determines who is left."
-Crusher-

[Alexander's Horse]

I want gulags and prisons. Have a happy day you all!

[Ecce Homo]

Mentioned this at Firaxis:
Drop granaries. They require micromanagement to build and get silly in the late game.

[Diodorus Sicilus]

Divide the possible improvements to a city by category. The categories (as they stand in the games now) are:
Growth
Trade/Economy
Science/Research
Production
Happiness
Defense
Efficiency/Pollution

Let's look at the progression of Improvements - making the city incrementally better and more useful as the game progresses. Suggested improvements are as follows. In parentheses are the improvements for a Tribal Group (nomadic equivalent of a city) which correspond to the (stationary) City Improvement.
Indented Improvements are successive or progressive Improvements, that add to or build on the original Improvement.

Category: Growth
Granary
(Storage Pits)
Aqueduct
City Sewers
Sanitation System
These could be reversed: City Sewers like the Cloaca Maxima in Rome and refuse removal drains in Babylon came before the famous aqueducts of Rome. The purpose is all the same: to allow progressively larger cities
Harbor
Port Facility
Port Facility not also repairs ships, it provides more Trade revenue from sea trade and handles more fishing/sea revenue and food resources
Airport
Launch Facility
Launch Facility is the Space Flight equivalent of an Airport

Category: Trade/Economy
Market
(Bazaar)
Bank
Stock Exchange
Caravanserai
(Caravanserai)
Warehouse
Depot
These are the progressive Infrastructure Improvements that make Trade possible; the have to be built in every city that a Trade Route pases through.
Supermarket
Shopping Mall
These should influence Income, Happiness, and Growth of the city all at once.
Container Port
Containerized Shipping is a major Modern Advance that improves income and volume of Trade by sea, air, and land. It should increase percentage based on how many different Trade Routes and types of transportation are availbale in the city.

Category: Science/Research
Academy
(Shaman’s Hut)
University
Science Park
Library
Museum
Publishing House

Category: Production
Mill
Factory
(Integrated) Manufacturing Plant
Robotic Factory
Power Plant
Hydroelectric Plant
Nuclear Power Plant
Fusion Plant
Solar Plant
Only one of these required per Factory, of course.

Category: Happiness
Temple
(Sacred Grove)
Cathedral
Theater
Colosseum
Stadium
Movie Palace
Broadcasting Station

Category: Defense
Drill Field
(Warrior’s Lodge)
Barracks
Maneuver Area
Why have Barracks for all Eras? Ancient training took place on a Field of Mars or Drill Field, early modern troops stayed in Barracks, modern units require Maneuver Areas.
City Walls
(Wagon Burgh)
Ramparts
Civil Defense Network
I agree with previous posts, we need Progressively Improving City defenses. The ealiest stone walls should still require some Advance to get, and after Gunpowder makes the old curtain wall obsolete, you go to Vauban-style Ramparts. After that the modern defense is to keep them away from your city, or build a system of alarms and bunkers within it to protect the population: Civil Defense
SDI

Category: Efficiency/Pollution
Palace
(Council)
Capital
Actually, the seat of government also attracts more population and provides a market for goods and services: the Palace should spike up Growth and Happiness as well as lowering Corruption (or maybe not, depending on the type of government!)
Courthouse
Mass Transit
City Park
Green Belt
Recycling Plant
Arcology

Other Possibilities:
Hospital
As a source of disease reduction, a Must. Could also increase Happiness and research in certain tech fields like Biology.
Water Works
Another possible Improvement to increase the size or viability of cities in the early modern period.

Questions I have for everyone:
1. What other improvements do we need in Game Terms?
2. Do we need more progression in some categories?
3. Do we need more variety in some categories?
4. Should there be Improvements that are peculiar to certain Value, Government, Religion, or Economic choices in the Civ?
Like, for instance, should the Stock Market only be allowed if you have Free Market Economics?

[Theben]

1)Actually I thought civ2 did a pretty good job with the various types of city improvements, although some were a bit outlandish (mass transit completely eliminates population pollution? Maybe with futuristic tech), and public health is more of a determinant to pop growth than "refrigeration". Also because civ type games live and die by units, various structures being necessary to complete certain units is a good idea. SMAC gave some ideas for futuristic city improvements.

3)Well I had ideas for city walls. Three basic types: ancient, reinassance, modern, tailored to each warfare era. 1st costs 60, no maintenance, 2nd 80, 3rd 120, 2 maintenance. Each would have better defense vs. older units, while having less defense against more modern ones. The Great Wall would permanently give cities level 1 city walls.

4) Religious variation is a bad idea. Too many people are worried about offending someone. The other categories might be as problematic. Free-market already gets x2 trade/energy than other economic choices, and unless you want to invent other economic systems for the game (a pain for the programmers, to be sure) it works well enough that way. Plus some people say communism as we know it is just state capitalism anyway.

Ecce homo,
Why drop granaries? We store food in modern times, and it's not any extra micromanagement, especially compared to the list above.

[The Ellimist]

Improvement Ideas:

Network Server (Internet): Boosts Science production by 50% in this city. Cumulative with Library, University, and Research Lab (SETI). Also makes two citizens happy (three with Photonics). Requires a University to be built.

Mega-Mall (Mass Production): Boosts Tax and Luxury production by 50% in this city. Cumulative with Marketplace, Bank, and Stock Exchange. Requires a Bank to be built.

Nanofactory (Nanorobotics): Boosts shields production by 50% in this city. Cumulative with Factory, Manufacturing Plant, and all other plants. Also, any unit that enters this city will by repaired (to a degree) that same turn.

[Flavor Dave]

The mega-mall should also have the property of anesthetizing your population;-)

Your ideas are neat, but only if Civ3 goes beyond 2020. These will be futuristic, next generation improvements to what we already have in the game. But realistically, if the game ends in 2020, there won't be much point to having these in the game. They won't make a difference, b/c 1. They'll rarely get built, since, as next generation improvements, they'll cost 320 shields and 2. By that time, you've either taken control of the game, or you're building up your military, not your science and tax revenue.

[Gregurabi]

Regarding the obsolescence of city walls:

I like the way CtP handles this one. Instead of multiplying a unit's defense value when it's behind a city wall (as Civ1/Civ2 do), CtP adds a constant factor to the unit's defense rating. E.g., a Phalanx (D:2) behind a city wall gets +4 (which triples its power); but a Machine Gunner (D:8) behind a city wall still gets only +4, which gives it only a 50% bonus. Thus, city walls gradually become irrelevant with modern units.

[The Brain]

Now, what I'm going to say is not that we shouldn't have new improvements, tech, units, etc. I am for new everything. It's just that if we have all of these ideas crammed into the game it will do something horribly wrong, it will make the game TOO realistic! It'll take us 5 years to finish this game if we have to research EVERY SINGLE THING and it'll take us as long to build a unit as it would in real life. Sorry but I don't want to have to be put on trial by AI for "Crimes against humanity."

------------------
Acctually I'm a genetically altered lab mouse plotting to take over the world!

[Flavor Dave]

Two problems with city walls having a constant value. First, it makes late conquest too easy. Talk about a strategy funnel--one of my least favorite things about Civ2 is that you build your cities, then either perfect or expand, (by might or settlers), then race for the key wonders (starting with MC and Leo's, thru Hoover Dam), and then go about winning the game. This idea means that late in the game, sitting behind walls and building the spaceship becomes unviable.

2nd, it's unrealistic. Units evolve, sure, but so do defensive structures. The Maginot Line did what it was supposed to do; the Germans didn't invade over it. They went around it. The Maginot Line worked just like Hadrian's Wall, even tho one was vastly more complex than the other.

[Theben]

Flav Dave,
I don't know if sitting behind walls should ever be a viable strategy. It certainly isn't realistic (I know, not EVERYthing needs to be realistic).
But I do agree that defenses upgrade just as weapons do (the units defenses do, why not the cities?). The Maginot Line in fact was the example I had in mind when suggesting the 3rd level of city walls above.