EC3 New Idea #23 - Energy

[Stefu]

I still love this idea. I want this to be in my game - absolutely. Gosh, I can already see it as essential part of Civ3.

[The Joker]

I really like this idea, and I definately think it should be included.

I do, however, have some suggestions and critic remarks:

1: I am very much for the 10x idea that we discussed in connection with our SE models this fall. It means that when a warrior used to cost 10 shields it will now cost 100. But the same time a forest square will now generate 20 shields in stead of 2. This way it will not change the fundamental aspects of the game. It will, however, make more things possible. You can now have units requiring food for support, have an advance that increases the food output with 10%, make it possible for different units to have different support (a stealth fighter needs more and other things than a legion) etc. It would make the game much, much better, and I think it is a must-have.

2: I disagree on having a central pool of energy. I think you should have to build trade routes (made instantly with a small fee) from your oil producing colony to your porduction mainland. This is because it should be possible to make a blockade against an enemy. This is one of the most important features I see in energy barrels, and so it should be possible. This would finally give you a reason to have a navy - to protect your energy trade routes and in wartime to disrupt your enemy's.

3: The modern production requires energy to work. To portray this I think that in order for a factory to convert 1 production into 2 production it should need 1 energy barrel. Manufacturing plants etc should work the same way. This would make energy even more crucial, and would make new war strategies like cutting off the enemy's energy supply even more efficient, as his entire production capability would be destroyed. I really like this idea as it is realistic and makes gameplay better.

[korn469]

here's another idea to along with energy...pollution

each energy barrel converted to work should cause one point of pollution

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
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</font>To portray this I think that in order for a factory to convert 1 production into 2 production it should need 1 energy barrel
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

so if that was the case, each energy barrel used at that factory would create one point of pollution...so don't base pollution on minerals(shields) prodution like in SMAC base it on energy barrels usage...so as your factories get more efficent they can produce more while causing less pollution

korn469

[raingoon]

Pollution and supply routes. Both good ideas. I'll make sure they end up in the model.

[raingoon]

Rough draft of my final proposal.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
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</font>A New Energy Model for Civ 3

Put energy resources into the game, as distinct from production resources. Few things would have as much benefit to other features as a simple Energy model. Energy resources could be depicted as BARRELS, where production resources would remain SHIELDS.

Energy could be derived from coal, oil, uranium, wind, solar and water, depending on your current level of technology. The map would seed these Special Energy Resources according to their energy yield potential. E.g., the more profitable a single resource is, the less frequently it appears on the map. Perhaps Uranium, which might yield the most barrels per site, would be the hardest to find.

The use of Energy in the game would be in combination with production shields to create modern units. Some units, like battleships, could not be built without HUGE volumes of energy barrels, and low-yield resources like coal would not be enough. The balance of the game should dictate that building a unit like a battleship, and supporting it, perhaps via a supply line, probably requires that the player locate, secure and exploit oil. Uranium better yet.

Various areas of the game that would be effected:

Trade - for players who missed the exploration and resource grab;
Diplomacy - trading energy, commoditites, land negotiation, etc;
Transportation - require each road tile and highway tile to consume energy, rail tiles as well -- should no longer be free, but much cheaper;
Exploration - new feature: locating resource deposits;
Technology Tree - discovery needed before able to locate/use resource;
ICS - makes it cost more to have more, thereby helping to restrict unbridled expansion;
Combat - vis a vis unit supply;
Unit Supply - energy is the coin of the realm here, how it is disbursed via supply is up to the supply model;
Land Control - necessitates the need to control resources;
City Management - possibly, depending on city resource model and how energy is disbursed;
Game Interface - energy "barrels," or other icon, now tracked alongside production shields;
Map Tiles - new tiles for Special Resources;

In a 4X strategy game, this idea is nothing less than fundamental to the game balance. In Civ, this feature would likely kick in at mid-game; therefore a player should not be able to locate a resource on the game map until they have such technology as would be required to exploit it.
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[korn469]

raingoon

about your energy idea

Trade - for players who missed the exploration and resource grab

i agree

Diplomacy - trading energy, commoditites, land negotiation, etc

i agree

Transportation - require each road tile and highway tile to consume energy, rail tiles as well -- should no longer be free, but much cheaper

needs work...in my opion each movement point spent by all modern units should require a barrel of energy for that to happen, so a tank moving three space across a field would require 3 energy barrles while a tank moving 11 spaces on a highway (see zanzibar's post) and then stopping at a fort would require 3 energy barrels...using railroads would require a fixed amount of energy barrels (see zanzibars post) while a stealth fighter flying 11 spaces would require 11 energy barrels

Exploration - new feature: locating resource deposits

i agree

Technology Tree - discovery needed before able to locate/use resource

i agree


ICS - makes it cost more to have more, thereby helping to restrict unbridled expansion

i feel that it has little impact on ICS but will be extreamly helpful in small states versus large states

Combat - vis a vis unit supply

i feel that it should just be needed for movement

Unit Supply - energy is the coin of the realm here, how it is disbursed via supply is up to the supply model

shields should still be needed...i feel that energy is just needed for movement

Land Control - necessitates the need to control resources

i agree

City Management - possibly, depending on city resource model and how energy is disbursed

i dunno yet, please explain it better

Game Interface - energy "barrels," or other icon, now tracked alongside production shields

i agree

Map Tiles - new tiles for Special Resources

i agree

also you left out a few things

energy barrels equals pollution: energy barrels used should be the sole determinant of how much pollution is caused, early on energy barrels will produce large amounts of pollution per barrel used, but increased technology will lower this amount

energy barrels needed for production:
you can't process shields without using energy barrels...so no matter how many shields per turn your base collects if it doesn't have energy barrels it cannot apply those shields to production...before factories are built it would take one energy barrel to use one shield, as factories are built the amount of shields utilized per energy barrel would go up

shields can be turned into energy barrels:
think of this as things like synthetic fuels produced by nazi germany during the end of WWII and other alternative fuel sources...i propose that it would take two shields to make one energy barrel

korn469

p.s. in SMAC in the alpha text which i was looking at last night it hase the ability to set values for food minerals money and then there is an unused value...so if it already exists to an extent in the alpha text hopefully it can be added to civ3...i haven't played around with it but maybe somebody could see what you can do with that unused value
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by korn469 (edited March 02, 2000).]</font>

[korn469]

raingoon

here are some more thoughts...

Tile Improvements:


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</font>open pit uranium mine: place it on uranium squares (greatest energy barrel production)
oil well: place it on oil squares (high energy barrel production)
coal mine: place it on coal squares (medium energy barrel production)
dam: place it on a river (medium energy barrel production)
solar panels: place them in a desert (low energy barrel production)
wind power plants: place them on hills (low energy barrel production)
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

facilities:

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</font>oil refinery: +50% to energy barrels from oil squares and TI's
power plant: +25% to energy barrels
nuclear power plant: +75% to energy barrels from uranium deposits squares and TI's
hydro power plant: +50% to energy barrels from dam TIs
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

korn469
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by korn469 (edited March 02, 2000).]</font>

[raingoon]

Korn469,

What about pre-industrial age -- I like the idea that you need barrels to make shields, but what about ancient times? What sort of energy was being expended to manufacture catapults?

[korn469]

raingoon

there is two ways we could go about this...one is to say that energy doesn't come into play unit the industrial age so we would ignore energy until the discover of steam power...

or

we could say that energy always exists, however in the preindustrial era what did they use for energy?

Tile Improvements

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>oxen ranch (animal power): (greatest energy barrel production)
lumber jack (wood): (high energy barrel production)
mills (water): (medium energy barrel production)
wind mill (wind): (medium energy barrel production)
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

korn469

[MadWoodster]

Sounds great to me though I think we would have to specify that mills can be placed in rivers and beaches but not further out. Lumber jacks obviously only in forests, and wind mills could be more powerful on hills, not sure whether building them on mountains is plausible but certainly not in forests. SOme sort of animal power would be great though where you would place it is another matter as you could have various animals for different terrains.

[Glostakarov]

While we're discussing the improvements part, how about a wonder (not sure what) that would provide a flat 20% (or some number) of the civ's energy needs. Thus a country that got unlucky placement (lack of energy producing tiles) could push their tech to be first to the wonder to make up for the lack.

[raingoon]

Glostakarov, great idea -- any idea what that wonder would be?

If a modern day advantage (which is when you'd need it) perhaps a "Future Tech" type wonder, like a pure Fusion Reactor? which would be a wonder and then some, I should think. Any thoughts?

[korn469]

how about the OPEC wonder of the world?

if you build the OPEC wonder you have a cartel on oil production and oil tiles produces twice the amount of energy barrels how does that sound?

korn469

[Glostakarov]

OPEC sounds good for the wonder, but instead have it leech a bit of the oil produced by everyone else. After all, twice nothing is still nothing if you got shafted on the energy tiles. But if your country was the first to recognize the value of these foreign assets and bought them all up...

[korn469]

how about this

OPEC increase energy barrels from oil in your squares by 1.5 times and steals 1/4 of energy barrels produced from oil squares by other civs...how does that sound?

korn469