Announcement

**korn469** · February 28, 2000, 19:40

EdN

can you answer some questions about your idea?

why is this idea needed?
how does your idea specifically address the reason for the idea existing?
does your idea add in any changes to other areas of the game?
does it upset the game balance that already exists?
can you introduce a less complex idea that would have basically the same effect as your idea?
after careful consideration is your idea open to exploitation?
why is your idea important enough to include out of a list of five new ideas?

do you have SMAC? it sounds like your idea would work somewhat similar to ecodamage...except instead of a fungus explosion, somebody would die due to disease

korn469

**Theben** · February 29, 2000, 00:55

I have a HUGE post in MISCELLANEOUS devoted to this subject, complete with a formula. Unfortunately, no one seems to look over them anymore...

**EdN** · February 29, 2000, 15:31

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Theben on 02-28-2000 11:55 PM</font>
I have a HUGE post in MISCELLANEOUS devoted to this subject, complete with a formula. Unfortunately, no one seems to look over them anymore...
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Sorry, this is the Disney World of CIV - You can't see it all in one day :-)

I Didn't see it listed in the 'one good idea' section so I figured nobody has proposed it before.

Great minds think alike, I guess.

**Theben** · February 29, 2000, 18:38

And fools seldom differ.

**MidKnight Lament** · March 1, 2000, 00:38

just off the topic for a sec, i'm pretty happy with these new smileys.

and showing the location of posters is a good idea too. good work, whoever was behind that. it might prove interesting when talking about some subjects like which civs should be included.

and while i'm here, my 2c on disease. i think it should be more strongly included than it previously has been, but maybe things like the plague (and perhaps others disease outbreaks as well) should be included as part of disasters rather than another concept all together. the chance of them happening could still be reduced with improvement/wonders as we've discussed could happen with disasters. (eg. city walls help prevent flooding)

**MadWoodster** · March 1, 2000, 08:56

Don't get rid of Barbarians. They represent the barbarians that were around in the early days. But I agree they must include disease in the game.

**Napoleon I** · March 1, 2000, 20:47

I think that the Barbarians should definitely stay. They do a good job of representing not only ancient pirates but also modern terrorists.

Disease is a good idea to incorporate into the game but I think that it should be treated as one of the natural disasters.

EdN: The overall idea is nice, but I don't quite get the units that you have associated with the disease. What exactly would they do?

------------------
Napoleon I

**Matthevv** · March 2, 2000, 10:01

I support the idea of disease being a factor, both as a normal part of life keeping the population from growing exponentially, and as a type of natural disaster (plagues).

City growth could be modelled using an algorithm based on exponential growth reduced by a disease coefficient. The disease coefficient would start very high, and be reduced by the discovery of medical technologies, and by improvements such as sanitation, clean water supply, hospital. There could also be a possibility of adding a doctor option to the entertainer, taxman, scientist, which would have the effect of increasing the population growth rate.

**Theben** · March 3, 2000, 21:01

In the tradition of donDon, if you guys won't go to the thread I'll bring the thread to you:

<font color=blue>
2. Diseases & Plagues

2.1) Cities generate disease pts. based on heat & wetness as described in TILES &
TILE IMPROVEMENTS. Hot & wet generates lots of disease while cold & dry generates
low. It reduces growth, and at a certain level plague TI's start to appear (like
pollution). The higher the total the greater chance and frequency plague TI's will
develop.

2.2) The formula is B+(A-D)/2-N=T
B= Base value of the land tiles
A= Adds to disease
D= Subtracted from disease
N= Given # that represents your people's natural resistance & efforts to reduce
disease.
T= Total amount. This amount is added to A at the beginning of next turn.

2.3) Things that increase disease levels:
Working high disease value tiles
"Adjacent" cities & trade routes
Larger cities
Warfare, conquest, riots, rebellion
Germ warfare & spy missions
Destroying buildings that reduce disease
Pollution, constructing buildings that increase pollution
Contact with new civs, re-establishing contact w/ a civ
Plague TI's
Units wandering through tiles that cause "damage" to them
A lack of food
Random events

2.3.1) Worked tiles add their total value to B. This includes tiles outside the city area
but are having its resources shipped to the city via "supply crawler". Unworked tiles
only add 50% of their value.

2.3.2) Disease can "travel" outside of its origin, with a "movement" of about 2 per
turn; roads, RR's, etc., affect this. When a disease value encounters a city it
compares it's B & A values to that of the city. If the city's combined values are higher
then nothing happens, if the city's are lower then the difference is added it's A. Trade
routes increase the "movement" speed of the disease along its route. Cities of nations
that you haven't met aren't included in the 1st case but are included if there is a
trade route going through it. Eventually all cities that are connected in some manner
will have approx. the same disease value. (should it have a decrease due to distance;
is this programmable?)

2.3.3) Cities add a # to A per pop point. Obviously, larger cities add more.

2.3.4) Each turn a city is attacked & riots reduce the city's ability to prevent disease,
as seen by a loss of D. Conquest & rebellion completely prevent D from functioning for
the turn the city is conquered or in rebellion. However, an enemy civ may spend
money during warfare or conquest to reduce disease in the Target City (see below).

2.3.5) Germ warfare & spy missions simply add a given # to A. Tech can create even
higher sums for germ warfare, missions. Siege equipment (catapults, etc.) have an
option to use germ warfare when attacking.

2.3.6) Self-explanatory

2.3.7) Polluted tiles add a set # of pts. to A per turn they are in existence. Also, 1
pollution pt. adds 1(?) pt. to A.

2.3.8) Contact new civs: Units have the disease total of their city if the SE choice is
uncentralized, or of the nearest home/allied city in it's supply path if centralized. This
amount would be listed in the City View & with the unit as well (not available to
enemy view unless allied or modern medicine available). When a unit encounters a new
civ, it adds it's city's combined B & A to the A of the city it encountered. This usually
results in a outbreak of some kind. The unit will transmit it's new total back to it's
home city or the nearest one, depending on the above, as long as it is in it's civ's
supply grid. If not, it doesn't transmit until re-connected and the unit "holds onto" the
B & A values of the new civ. If contact is lost and later re-established, the cities are
only considered to be "adjacent".

2.3.9) See Effects (below)

2.3.10) I've suggested elsewhere that units take damage when moving through
certain terrain (chariots in mountains, swamp). This damage is different than the
above but is partially due to disease so I mention it here.

2.3.11) A lack of food =1(?) disease pt. per "bushel" shortfall. However, these disease
pts. don't apply towards reduced growth, as this should be already accounted for in
the growth rate.

2.3.12) Random plagues add to A. They can add a few to many pts., and can include
instantly generated plague TI's.

2.4) Things that decrease disease levels:
Preventing the above
Working low disease tiles
Change tiles to less disease-bearing ones
Increasing N
Spend cash
Diplomatic missions
Constructing certain buildings-granary, aqueduct, sewers, city walls, water treatment
plant?, mass transit, etc.
Wonders
Population reduction
Quarantine
Certain tech
Random events

2.4.1) N normally = the value of 1a. above. N also increases naturally: each turn that
there's a positive amount in T, N increases by 1 point. In the event T is a negative
number, N decreases by 1 point. The max number N can increase should have a cap;
based on the city size?

2.4.2) Cash is paid to increase D. Some tech-medicine, sanitation, public health,
etc.-decrease the cost of buying off a disease point. You could set up a given amount
to be paid each turn in high disease cities in the city screen. This should not be
cheap.

2.4.3) This is done in the diplomacy screen. You send another civ aid, by 'buying'
some pts. in their city's D (as in 2.4.2), or give/lend a disease-preventing tech. This
can also be done in a city you're attacking or to any city under attack. You may also
suggest to an ally how to set up it’s city to lower disease (see DIPLOMACY).

2.4.4.) Buildings add to D, but only affect certain types of disease modifiers. Granaries
reduce disease due to lack of food & famine random events; aqueducts greatly reduce
disease in large cities; city walls allow the city to "refuse contact" (below) prior to
Medicine (keeps out the diseased), mass transit by reducing pollution, etc. Again,
tech may increase the reduction.

2.4.5) Cure for Cancer & Human Genome Project come to mind. They could affect D
&/or act as tech (below).

2.4.6) See Effects

2.4.7) Cities under quarantine have all routes to or through them shut down. No units
may enter or leave the city area. Units under quarantine outside their home city area
are disbanded. This takes the city off the "adjacent city" lists & trade routes. Other
cities can "refuse contact" with them; no units from that city or receiving support
from that city may enter the city radius, trade to/through it is shut down. This has a
% chance of avoiding contact with the diseased city. Quarantining isn't available until
the discovery of Medicine.

2.4.8) Tech are subtracted directly from T, after the formula is calculated. This allows
N to balance the formula to=0, and then tech can give a negative result. If a civ's
technology or a declining N makes B+(A-D)/2-N= a negative number, then that number
is added to the growth rate next turn.

2.4.9) Random events can add to D, cause plague TI's to vanish, etc.

2.5) Effects:

2.5.1) Cities: Each city has the same amount of "free" disease resistance (again,
similar to the amount of pollution pts. cities can absorb). Once cities go beyond this
point, each disease point lowers city growth, and creates a % chance of a plague TI
appearing on the landscape. These cause unhappiness in the city, as well as reducing
pop growth even more by adding additional pts. to A. Each disease point beyond the
"free" level increases the chance of the TI appearing, up to 50%. Once disease pts.
go beyond this stage, there is a 50% chance of a plague TI appearing and a smaller %
chance of another plague TI appearing! There is no limit to the # of chances of a
plague TI generating in the city radius in one turn. These can only be removed by
settlers/engineers &/or public works, military units (depending on SE choices), or by a
loss of a pop unit. Settlers/engineers must be funded and also cost extra food &
support. The loss of a pop point causes one plague TI to disappear. Military units can
remove a TI by killing a population point. The unit must be in the city or plague TI.
This act is frowned upon by certain societies.

2.5.2) Units: Units have the same disease value as their supply point (as above).
They make checks for outbreaks as cities; the difference being that a successful
plague TI generation causes the unit to take 1 point of damage*it's "reactor level"
(i.e., the 1,2,3, or 4 hp's of units found in civ2 and SMAC) instead. In the event that
a unit encounters another civ (1h. above), unit, or populated TI- anything that
increases its disease value above its supply point, it will transfer the value to the
supplying city, based on distance. If unsupplied, it will "hold" onto the new disease
level until reconnecting to its supply route (as above). Any unit in a plagued tile
automatically takes 1* reactor damage, except for settlers/engineers that are
receiving the extra support to cleanse the tile (they are still subject to normal disease
damage). Units that receive support from a city that has plague TI's cannot switch
support to other cities. Units receiving support from a plagued city also have their
morale reduced.

2.5.3) Populated TI's: Military bases, naval bases, supply depots, farms, garrisoned
forts, etc. have a disease pt. level = to the nearest city or the city they receive
support from. For game purposes they are immune to disease and all it's effects, with
the exception of village TI's. Villages are the only squares that can get a 'disease'
icon. Villages with disease icons on them have reduced production and % chance of
being destroyed per turn.

2.6) 4 options (for Firaxis, not players) for multiple workers on same tile:
A given tile ,FE, creates 10 disease pts. for the city each turn one worker is on it. If
two workers are on it, the city will receive:

1.10 disease points (as if only one person was on the tile)
2.15 disease points (150% of the norm, which would be diminishing returns on the
disease points given to the city)
3.20 disease points (additive, each worker contributes his 10 disease points)
4.25 disease points (the villagers are packed together tighter, and as a result
they're going to get sicker)

2.7) Disease cannot be transmitted by diplomats or by diplomatic wonders (United
Nations).</font>

**Theben** · March 3, 2000, 21:05

<font color=red>

An example:
A city has 20 points of disease from tiles around it & worked tiles. It is size 4, for 4
more pts. There is a larger city nearby adding +2 pts. overall. The city/civ currently
has no techs/buildings/wonders that would add to D. It's N is 20 (equal to 1a.).

The formula is B+(A-D)/2-N=T

With numbers: 20+(6-0)/2-20=3.
We'll say that 5 is the maximum number to get w/o worrying about lowered growth &
plague TI's.
T=3, and this number is added to A the following turn. N increases by 1. There are no
outside changes to A or D.

turn 2: 20+(9[6+3]-0)/2-21=3 1/2, round up to 4. N again increases by 1. Note that
the 3 extra points from the turn before are included in the 4 points added this turn,
they don't continue to add up.
turn 3: 20+(10[6+4]-0/2-22=3.
turn 4: 20+(9-0)/2-23=1 1/2 or 2.
turn 5: 20+8/2-24=0.
turn 6: 20+6/2-24=-1. The cit will get a one turn boost to it's growth (a very minor
boost).
turn 7: 20+5/2-23=0.
turn 8: 20+6/2-23=0. The numbers have stabilized, and won't change, w/o additional
interference.

Now lets say another civ you've never met comes along. The city supporting it has a B
of 16 and an A of 4, =20.

20+(6+another 20, for 26-0)/2-23=23. Let us also say that each +1 above 5=a +10%
chance of a plague TI generating, so there are 23-5 18 points, for 3-50% chances of a
TI appearing, and 1-30% chance. Let's say that 2 TI's generate, and that each one
adds +3 disease points.

Next turn: 20+(6+23+6-0)/2-24=13.5 or 14. Now there's 1-50% chance and 1-40%
chance. You're unlucky and 2 more TI's appear, bringing the total to 4. Your populace
is dimishing quickly. You decide to shell out cash to buy some defense, 4 points worth.

Turn 3: 20+(6+14+12-4)/2-25=9. No new TI's appear. In fact one of your people die
and thus a TI disappears. Your base A value and TI value have both decreased. You
also discover medicine, which subtracts a point from T, before T is calculated to inhibit
growth & generate plague but after N's change is figured. You pay for 4 more points of
D.

Turn 4: 20+(5+8+9-4)/2-26=3. The crisis is over, and eventually will stabilize. You may
lose one more pop point before it's over. Note that if you didn't immediately quarantine
the city (and because you didn't have medicine, you couldn't; but other cities might
have walls), the new disease will "move" to nearby cities causing the same problems. </font>

This model was put together before I read "Guns, Germs, and Steel", so I'd change a few things before finalizing it. But most of it holds up, IMHO.

**korn469** · March 3, 2000, 22:34

Theben

i am going to please ask for you to stop the tradition of don Don before it really gets going...

Firaxis has already seen the list, many of the people here have seen the list...i do not think the list is a perfect document and that the ideas presented in each of the threads are just as valid as any presented in the list

i am afraid that presenting the list might hinder discussion and i do not want people to start quoting the list like it is a fact and that ideas that do not agree with the list are mere interjections...i see many people use historical "facts" to basically tell people they are wrong...i do not want the list to become a tool of intimidation

the Essential Civ3 List is all about stating ideas in civ2/SMAC terms and telling how that these ideas could make civ3 better

Theben please instead of quoting the list give specific and timely critiques, thanks, and your disease model looks good...but could you make a simpler system that does the same thing? i will read ovcer it again

korn469

**S. Kroeze** · March 5, 2000, 07:41

I'm an advocate of the introduction of some sort of disease model. Yet I want to stress again the relation between infectious diseases and food shortage. And there is a general tendency to overrate the influence of medical sciencies.

"Under agriculture there was a beginning of control of the environment, and an increase in food supplies led to a decline of mortality and expansion of numbers. But reproduction was not effectively restricted, and populations increased to the size at which food supplies became again marginal. As many of the basic conditions of life were unchanged, non-communicable diseases were still rare; but living together in large numbers and unhygienic conditions, human beings had inadvertently created precisely the conditions required for the propagation and transmission of many infective organisms. Infectious diseases became the predominant causes of sickness and death.

For nearly the whole of human existence, as in the Third World today, numbers were excessive in relation to the resources available, and ill health was due mainly to the multiple effects of poverty. These effects have varied in different periods, but the constant and major determinant has been lack of food. There could be no more convincing evidence for this conclusion than the fact that in developing countries such as China and India (in the state of Kerala), which in a few decades have attained western standards of health, the advances are attributable almost entirely to improved nutrition; there were no substantial improvements in water, sanitation and personal health services, and immunization coverage was low. But the effects of poverty are also manifested through various hazards, particularly exposure to infectious diseases through defective hygiene and aggregation of large populations. The deficiencies and hazards derived from poverty are the major causes of sickness and death in the Third World today, and they are also largely responsible for the ill health of many poor people in developed countries. Moreover the difficulties will increase because of rapid population growth - the world's population is expected to double before it stabilizes - and the movements of people from rural to urban areas. It is painful to imagine what health conditions are likely to be on the streets of Calcutta or the outskirts of Mexico City in the twenty-first century, when the population of each city will be well above 20 million"

source: T. McKeown: 'The Origins of Human Disease', 1988

**raingoon** · March 9, 2000, 16:29

Disease Final Draft

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>Disease has changed the course of civilization far more than all the armies that have ever marched. 60% of the casualties in WWI were from disease not guns. The Native Americans weren't eliminated by european armies but by a tiny organism called small pox. Gengis Kahn and Alexander the Great died at the peak of their power - not by war but by disease. With the exception of a single WOW, Civ has always ignored disease.

Proposal

General disease:

General disease could have an effect similar to corruption. Doctors/Medicine Men can reduce the affects (similar to Elvii). The likelihood of disease spontaneously appearing increases with population (one could say that disease is to population what pollution is to land tiles), and decreases with advancements, wonders, and, as stated above, Doctors/Medicine Men. Disease levels increase with each unit of food shortage. War increases disease in all cities. Each level of disease increases the chance of Plague.

Plague:

Replace the silly barbarians (OK, some people may like em - I don't) with plague. Plague would randomly strike a city based on its disease level. Plague could spread by road or rail or if a unit present in a city radius during an outbreak travels to another city (could be used as a hidden attack?). Plague reduces the population, suspends production and inflicts damage (without modifiers) to all units within the city radius. As the population decreases, the chances of the plague ending increases.

Suggested Research

Herbs & Potions

Domestication (cats keep disease caring rodents in check.)

Plumbing (finally a good use for the mysterious plumbing!)

Alchemy

Modern Medicine

Drugs

Improvements

Hospital

Quarantine Zone (perhaps temporary?)

Units (battlefield equivalents of Barracks)

Red Cross Unit

MASH Unit

Floating Hospital Unit

WOWs

Hypocratic Oath

Penicillin

CDC (Center for Disease Control)

Cure for Cancer
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by raingoon (edited March 09, 2000).]</font>

Announcement

EC3 New Idea #37 Disease

EC3 New Idea #37 Disease

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment