se model poll: we have 4 of them right?

[MarkG]

I see Maniac's and Harel's here http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum28/HTML/000235.html
and Technocrat's and The Joker's models here http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum28/HTML/000178-6.html

that's it?
if yes, I'll start a new poll tomorrow...

[Jon Miller]

take the models from the list

Jon Miller

[MarkG]

I think the list has only three of them....

[The Joker]

I agree with Jon. By this we are sure to get the latest versions.

However, i am not sure a poll would be the answer to the disagreements we have. First off I don't think many people read the discussion in the SE threads. They're buissy with combat, diplomacy, economics etc. And in order to have a working democracy people need information. And i am not sure that everybody would want to spend hours reading almost 100 pages of SE stuff. Especcially as the models (except Jons) are pretty similar. If people haven't read the Models through the poll would be meaningless. Besides, the discussion we are having is very productive, as we are agreeing on more and more stuff. For instance am I REALLY beginning to like Jons "Population deciding SE effects" idea. I still like my own model's option far better, but the concept in Jons is brilliant. And so I would like it implemented in my model as well. I hope that Firaxis will take the best from all models, and if we are lucky, drop in and check out part of our discussion in the threads, just to see our argumentations.

When that has been said I must say that I would like to see how many supports each model.

[loinburger]

Does it really matter anymore? The list forum has decayed to what we always feared it would become... fifty different topics saying essentially the same thing (thank you ottok), most of them incomprehensible at that. Furthermore, the list has already been sent into Firaxis, and their lack of any reply leads me to think that anything else we send them will be summarily ignored. So while I hate to take the apathetic tone that Alexander's Horse has been touting for the past few months, is there really anything else we can do?

[will I]

Well, even if Firaxis doesn't give a c**p, it's still been an interesting thought exercise, and there are precious few of those around. My other hope is that, while I am not a programmer or game developer, other folks are, and might take inspiration from our ideas to take TBS to a truly radical new level.

[MarkG]

ok, so do you want the poll or not?

[yin26]

Markos:

This list has five systems, one each from:

Joker, M@ni@c, Jon Miller, Technocrat, and Theben. In addition, I missed Harel's system, which you already have the link to.

A poll is great idea except that most people don't seem interested in Civ3 talk right now. Of course, if Firaxis asked us to do the poll with a mind to taking one of the systems seriously (and if they announced that intention), I'm sure we'd get a huge debate.

But without feedback from them, most of us seem to be in "watch and wait" mode. But, who knows, maybe a few people would enjoy the debate on these systems?

Yin

[CormacMacArt]

In an attempt to not be cynical, I will say that you missed mine (yes, it is in the se thread, don't know why you didn't see it...).

MAJOR REVISION 2.0

A note before I go on, I am of the opinion that each city should be taken as being composed of a single culture and religion. Dividing up a city into different cultures and Religions adds a level of complexity that IMO does not add to game play. I also believe that government (organizational and economic) forms should actually CHANGE how we govern our civilizations and not be changes in name only.

Definitions:

CITY - a region defined by a specific set of cultural attitudes and a religion

VOTING CITY - a city that has the right to participate in the election of a representative body. This must be intentionally granted to conquered cities. This is a treaty option for the ceding of a city to another civ.

CULTURE - the attitudes of militaristic, perfectionistic, etc, on a -10 to 10 scale instead of -1 to 1

ASSIMILATION - the slow change of a conquered city's attitudes to match that of the empire's.

HAPPINESS - a percentage based on the closeness between a city's cultural profile and the REPRESENTATIVE BODY of the civ.
EQUATION: H% = (1-((|rv1 - cv1| + |rv2 - cv2| + ... + |rvn - cvn|)/n)/20) * 100
where H% is the percentage of people happy
rvn is the numerical cultural value "n" of the representative body
cvn is the numerical cultural value "n" of the city

DISCONTENT - a percentage based on the discrepancy between a city's cultural profile and the leader of the civ.
EQUATION: D% = (((|Lv1 - cv1| + |Lv2 - cv2| + ... + |Lvn - cvn|)/n)/20) * 100
where D% is the percentage of people disgruntled by the actions of the civ leader
Lvn is the numerical cultural value "n" of the Leader, taken from the leader's profile
cvn see above
Note - a player starts out with a profile identical to his first city's. Over time, his profile is amended by his/her actions.
Note - the equation above does not take corruption into account and therefore is not complete

UNREST - a cumulative measure of the unhappiness of a city

SENATES, QUORUMS, AND PARLIMENTS - representative bodies that have some measure of power in a civ. They are elected (recalculated) every 5 years (baring war), or after the change in the number of VOTING CITIES.

SENATE - a representative body whose profile is determined by the average of each individual city profiles.
EQUATION: Svn = (c1vn + c2vn + ... + cmvn)/total number of voting cities

Svn = SENATE value "n"
cmvn = value "n" of city "m"

QUORUM - a representative body whose profile is determined by the average of each different TYPE of profile present in the civilization. Thus if an empire has 10 cities, but they can be classified into 4 profiles (eg - English, Irish, Scotch, partially assimiliated Irish), those four profiles will be averaged to become the QUORUM profile.

PARLIMENT - a representative body whose profile is determined by the average of all city profiles multiplied times their respective population points. Thus if an empire has 10 cities, the profiles of all cities are multiplied times their population size and then averaged to become the PARLIMENT profile. Thus a city with a large population has more representation than a city with a small population.

I may need to add different definitions as I see people's comments.

There would be three parameters related to the governing of the civ:

Government Form - how I interact with the people
Organizational Form - how I interact with my cities
Economic Form - how I manage my economy

GOVERNMENT FORM: AUTOCRACY; MONARCHY; REPUBLIC; COMMUNIST; THEOCRACY; DEMOCRACY

AUTOCRACY - You are the Lord of your civilization and control:
Values (knowledge, power, mores, etc.)
Religious attitude
Diplomacy (although not all your city governors may feel bound by your decisions)
Military (restricted by Organizational Form)
Direction of research
Organizational Forms: CENTRALIZED
Economic Forms: ALL
Benefits: little corruption when composed of one civilization; one unsupported military unit per city;
Restrictions: unassimilated cities must have troops stationed in them to maintain order and insure the payment of tribute;

MONARCHY - You are ruler of your civilization and control:
diplomacy
values (knowledge, power, mores, etc.)
religious attitude
military (may be restricted by Organizational Form)
direction of research
taxes (may be restricted by Organizational Form)
Organizational Forms: CENTRALIZED, FEUDAL, CITY-STATE, PROVINCAL
Economic Forms: NATIONAL BARTERING; MERCANTILISM; SOCIALISM; FASCIST
Benefits: upon switching to MONARCHY, all powers are vested in the monarch, and the assembly has no inherent powers. They must be granted to the assembly by the monarch, but once granted rescinding those powers increases the baseline for discontent to 30%.
Restrictions: unrest may develop in conquered civilizations; no conquered city may be represented in the assembly for at least 100 years;

REPUBLIC - You are Speaker of your civilization's SENATE and control:
Diplomacy (SENATE must ratify treaties and declare wars upon your request, but you are allowed some use of military force without SENATE approval)
Military
Subject to SENATE's approval
Direction of research
Values
Religious attitude
SENATE controls (but considers proposals by the Speaker):
Taxes
Organizational Forms: CENTRALIZED; PROVINCIAL; FEDERAL; CITY-STATE

Economic Forms: NATIONAL BARTERING; MERCANTILISM; FREE MARKET; KEYNES'
Benefits: central treasury; unrest slower to develop
Restrictions: loss of total control; military actions that are not declared wars will set baseline for discontent at 10%

THEOCRACY - You are the religious head of your civilization and control:
values (knowledge, power, mores, etc.)
religious attitude
diplomacy (may be restricted by Organizational Form)
military (may be restricted by Organizational Form)
direction of research
taxes (may be restricted by Organizational Form)
Organizational Forms: CENTRALIZED; PROVINCIAL; FEDERAL
Economic Forms: NATIONAL BARTERING; MERCANTILISM; SOCIALISM; FASCIST
Benefits: central treasury; corruption minimal in "loyal" cities;
Restrictions: You must choose a religion and that AI becomes your "parliment" if you
choose the Centralized Organizational Form, otherwise only those cities with that
particular religion are represented in PARLIMENT; PARLIMENT may rebel if you deviate too much from its profile;

DEMOCRACY - You are the President of your civilization and control:
Diplomacy (PARLIMENT must ratify treaties and declare wars)
Military
PARLIMENT controls (but considers Presidential proposals):
Military funding
Values (knowledge, power, mores, etc.)
Religious attitude
Direction of research
Taxes
Organizational Forms: CENTRALIZED; PROVINCIAL; FEDERAL; CITY-STATE
Economic Forms: NATIONAL BARTERING; MERCANTILISM; SOCIALISM; FASCIST; KEYNES'
Benefits: central treasury; unrest slowest to develop
Restrictions: military actions that are not declared wars, will lower happiness temporarily military actions that are not declared wars will set baseline for discontent at 10%


COMMUNIST - You are chairman of the communist party and you control:
Values (knowledge, power, mores, etc.)
Religious attitude
Diplomacy (PARLIMENT must ratify)
Military
Direction of research
Taxes
Organizational Forms: CENTRALIZED; PROVINCIAL; FEDERAL
Economic Forms: SOCIALIST - all existing corporations are liquidated first, all production is controlled as in Civ II
Benefits: If another communist country goes into REVOLT moving military units into that country, to quell the rebellion is allowed and not an act of war.
Restrictions: All food is distributed equally to each city w/waste and corruption level.



ORGANIZATIONAL FORM: CENTRALIZED; PROVINCIAL; FEDERAL; FEUDAL; CITY-STATE


CENTRALIZED
Benefits: assimilation of conquered/absorbed peoples fastest; centralized military; perceived strength in diplomacy +1; each city has the same tax burden
Restrictions: corruption increase is steepest upon increasing distance from capital, but can be controlled with Governor's Residences;

PROVINCIAL - Only cities having a population over 10 take part in elections
Benefits: centralized military; corruption slope lower than in centralized form; corruption in non-represented cities depends upon distance to nearest represented city; very low possibility of revolt for represented cities; tax percentages can be modified on a city-by-city basis;
Restrictions: discontent in unrepresented cities can turn into a full-blown civil war;

FEDERAL
Benefits: no possibility of city revolt during wartime; corruption slope lower than PROVINCIAL and levels off at a distance of 10 (Civ II, large map dist) ;
Restrictions: vulnerable to revolt from city discontent; city may hold militia separate from central military, but can only be used within city radius; cities collect more money than requested and use it to pay for militia

FEUDAL
B: very easy system to get minor civs, and cities from neighboring civs to join; corruption relative to ratio of city/capital strength (except the capital, which is lower)
R: the autonomy (control of trade, production, military & payment of taxes) and assimilation of each city depends upon the relative strength of the capital to each city; each city can independently control the production of military units; borders cities can change allegiance without notice if neighboring another FEUDAL system civ;

CITY-STATE
B: most alluring to minor or small civilizations and neighboring cities; corruption slope shallow;
R: easiest for cities to leave; as Leader of the civ, you may put items on the city's (other than the capital); only mercenaries can have veteran status, all native troops have only one year service; items can be placed on the production queue, but the city governor can delay production to third place on queue at the time of request; assimilation stagnant; each city can independently recall its military; limited in the tax% that you can levi


ECONOMIC FORM: AUTARKY; NATIONAL BARTERING MERCANTILISM; SOCIALIST; FASCIST; KEYNES'; FREE MARKET


AUTARKY - the beginning civ will start out at this, but will be unable to return to this as a choice, although a player should be able to "return" to it by choosing to eliminate trade with other nations. No trade outside of civilization and internal trade is on a one-time basis.

NATIONAL BARTERING - this is trade with other nations as initiated in Civ II, that is it takes place along side of diplomatic negotiations. It is on a one-time basis. Taxes are independent of trade income of cities.

MERCANTILISM - Trade routes can be established by the civ (visible and automatic) and by trade companies (these are the foundations of the future corporations - one per civ) if commissioned by the civ. The civ will also be able to cotrol how much revenue is received from the trade co. along with what the trade company can trade in.

SOCIALIST - production and trade are controlled by the state, corruption increases with production. Under COMMUNISM, all corporations are liquidated.

FASCIST - production done within the civ is dictated by the state. Corruption increases with production and distance from the capital.

FREE MARKET - the government has no say in production (by corporations) or trade and can make no regulations on pollution or land use.

KEYNES' - production and trade are monitored and only controlled by the state when necessary (ie. war). Each corp. in the civ is monitored as to what it is producing/trading in and to whom it is going. Trade with other nations is controlled in the Foreign relations screen. Also, regulations on the amount of pollution can be linked to taxes to the civ.


Assumptions:

1. If a civ is conquered it can attempt to found a Government in Exile in a friendly civ. The government in exile prevents the assimilation of its former capital and lasts until all former cities have been assimilated and the capital is razed.
2. Trade companies, Corporations and Banks can be formed within civs, springing up as a response to a new economic form or commissioned by the government.


I suggest that CONFEDERATION be a treaty choice.

[ottok]

"no complain, ´sir`!"

[yin26]

CormacMacArt (and others):

In an attempt to not be cynical, I will say that you missed mine (yes, it is in the se thread, don't know why you didn't see it...).

The original plan, as we know, was to make one summary of the SE models; however, this proved seemingly impossible, so I asked people to send me their complete systems to my e-mail account. If you didn't send it by e-mail, I didn't include it.

I also posted the list on the forum for people's approval, hoping to catch anything that I missed or to clarify what was going to be sent. Of course, I only left that option open for a few days, since I really wanted to get the VERY overdue list into the right hands before Civ3 developed too far. So, if you didn't contact me then (though you might not have been around for a few days), the list was sent without your last minute feedback.

So, I've done just about everything I reasonably could to make sure I didn't miss anything and still get the list finished in reasonable time. Having said that, I'm sure Firaxis will examine any models you send on your own.

Sorry that the process wasn't perfect.

Yin

[CormacMacArt]

Yin,

I'm sorry, I was not faulting you. You have done a very good job of keeping this whole thing together.

Cormac Mac Art

[yin26]

CormacMacArt:

You don't need to fault me. I've already done that myself!

I wanted version 2 to really be all-inclusive, but I managed to miss some things, which is disappointing. In general, though, I think all the people involved put forward a great effort. I'm so curious to see what will make it in...anyway, sorry about the mix up with the SE thread.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by yin26 (edited November 19, 1999).]</font>