Wonder troubles!

[Maniac]

I just submitted two posts at the same time in the Wonder thread -an edited one and a new one- and now there are troubles with Wonders. It has disappeared.
Topic 10.31, Replies M@ni@c!
Can this be solved?

Sorry for breaking the rule that only TM's may start new topics, but I think you should know what happened.
You may delete the topic any time, Yin or Shining.

[Maniac]

The first page is still intact, but the other 25 posts of the second page are disappeared.

[yin26]

Thanks for the notice. I'll see what I can do (which means I'd better tell Markos ).

[MarkG]

I really hope the WOnders TM had a backup...

Earlier today I had accessed the thread and at least the first page seemed ok, but now...

------------------
Markos, Apolyton Civilization Site
"I would recommend that I should not be banned until I say so"

[Maniac]

Perhaps start an emergency thread and ask people to just post the name of the wonder and what effects they should have.
The basic wonder discussions like to not bias American and European wonders, to include different names for wonders for each style and the difference between Wonders, Special (national) Project and Natural Wonders are already included in the List v1.0 so except wonder names there isn't lost anything, I think.

However since there seemed to be a lot of people on vacation until the end of August, we couldn't get back all the proposed wonders before the List v2.0, I fear.

But I remember there was recently something who posted all the proposed wonders and what he thought of it, if he knew them and things like that. I hope he has a copy.

[Jon Miller]

Hi all

just returned from vacation but I have to get ready to return to college (once there I will have plenty of time but do not now) so Bell and Theben and Snowfire and Korn, you are out of luck and I hope you do well in sumarrizing my posts

I was going to sumarrize mine for the SE thread but ran out of time (might decide to stay up late tonight (5 am), might do it then) and I think it is important to get my ideas down since I am the only one that is thinking very differently

on to the subject at hand

before snowfire posted on 10:31 post I clicked on it and it took me to the second page of wonders (but without M@ni@cs post), I could see if the page is still in memory (but I doubt it)

it was on my moms machine which she took with her so I will not be able to check until tonight

Jon Miller (saying nothing bad about Harel's and M@ni@cs ideas, they are just very similar to smacs)

[Diodorus Sicilus]

Here is a report of my 22 Aug post on the Wonder Thread that summarized the last list of Wonders with my comments...
This is NOT an official Summary: just my personal summary of thoughts on Wonders, Special Projects, and Ideals that have been posted and toasted over the past two months+...
Differentiating and defining:
Wonders are one-time builds, visible and ‘concrete’. They’d appear on the map/terrain or in the city scape. Some are Natural Wonders, appearing when the map is generated, and giving benefits to civs or cities nearby when discovered. Constructed Wonders can be destroyed or pillaged by an enemy.
Special Projects can be built wherever the conditions are right: usually specialized terrain , technological, or social configurations. Some of them are visible and concrete, others less tangible. Some can be pillaged or destroyed, others result in a change of conditions in the civ that is not always directly reversable.
Ideals are intangible, but sometimes represented by a tangible object/construction. They can be built whenever conditions are appropriate, but are usually specific to a civ’s particular politics, social and governmental structure, values, and sometimes diplomatic status. The Ideal when realized may change any of these conditions or economic/military/scientific conditions and progress. Once realized, Ideals are not lost unless the conditions engendering them are also lost of changed.
Any of the above may have maintenance costs and Obsolescence dates or conditions.

Now, what follows is the list of Wonders from Stefu’s 13 Aug 0824 post, plus a few others gathered from hither and yon, with comments on their cataloging as Wonders, Special Projects, or Ideals and possible effects. Effects are based on the emerging SE system by Harel & M@ni@c et al. I won’t give too much precision in effects because that depends on what kind of mechanism is used to build, improve, or expand cities and civs in the final game... The Categories of Research mentioned assumes a semi-blind research system will be adopted similar to SMAC’s categories of Build, Grow, Explore, Conquer, which has been discussed in the Technology Thread.

Natural Wonders:

Volcano
Provides + food production in radius around it (better soil). Provides +1 Happiness to city in radius (spiritual effects of mountains like Tahoma, Fujiyama, Kilimanjaro). In Modern era, also provides + Gold from Tourism. Effects do not expire. May be several on the map, some active with potential Eruption Effects (destruction of % of terrain improvements, city improvements, population within radius). When discovered, can be named; computer suggested names include: Mount Vesuvius, Mount Etna, Mauna Loa, Haleakala, Krakatoa, Mount Tahoma (Rainier), Mount Fuji, Mount Kilimanjaro, Paricutin.
Variant: Undersea Volcano. Can only be found after Underwater exploration possible (Modern advances), provides + Shields/Gold from minerals and thermal energy, but same Eruption Effects as land volcano.
Water Fall
Provides + 1 irrigation effects for entire city radius which includes it, + power/shields when Waterwheel Mill, Hydro Power advances discovered/built, + Gold from Tourism in Modern era. May be several on map when generated, may be named when first discovered. Computer-suggested names include: Victoria, Niagra, Angel, Iguacu, Great Cataract
Barrier Reef
Provides + Food from sea tiles around it, +Gold from Tourism in Modern era.
Banks
Meaning shallows full of fish. Covers several sea tiles, provides ++ Food from all of them. Expires if exploited for X turns (increasing possibility over time). When discovered, can be named. Computer suggested names include: Banks of Newfoundland, Grand Banks, Dogger Banks, Fundy
Marianas Trench
Greatest depth in ocean. Can only be discovered when underwater exploration possible (Modern era). Provides + Research in Explore category.
Everest
Tallest mountain on planet. Provides + Happiness (spiritual effect, see above) and + Gold from Tourism in Modern era.
Grand Canyon
Provides impassable barrier to land movement for its length, which may be several tiles (1 to 3?). Provides + Gold from Tourism in Modern era

Constructed Wonders:

Pyramids
Requires Stone Working/Masonry. Provides ++ Public Works (mobilized labor), + Happiness (folks kept busy)in entire Civ. Obsolete ater govt becomes Representative (Republic, Democracy) or Any change in Religion
Hanging Gardens
Requires Irrigation. Same features as in CivII: appropriate and too good to give up. Becomes Obsolete with Railroad
Pharos (Lighthouse)
Requires Masonry, Ship Building. Extends Range of all ships by 50% OR allows 1 - 2 turns ended at sea OR increases Trade income in city where built. Must be built in Port city, Effects reduced by 50% when Caravel/Cog (improved sailing ship) introduced to Civ. Obsolete with Steam Engine
Stonehenge
Requires Astrology (primitive Astronomy) and Stone Working. Provides + Food Production from all farms in Civ. Obsolete when Advance: Mechanical Clock in Civ
Colossus
Requires Bronze-Working. Provides + Production and + gold from Trade in city where built, Obsolete in Renaissance (Advance?)
Great Wall
Requires Masonry/Advanced Stoneworking. Provides Wall (City Wall) defense over X tiles, and appears on the map as a permanent feature when built. + Nationalism in Civ where built, Obsolete when Advance: Bombard (first gunpowder cannon) by any Civ in contact with the owning Civ
Great Library
Requires Literacy/Alphabet. Provides + Research in All Fields, ++ Diffusion of Tech from all civs in contact. Obsolete with Printing Press (effects become general in all civs with printing)
Sun Tzu’s Academy
Requires Philosophy and Bureaucracy. Provides all Veteran (higher Morale/Experience) units and generals. Obsolete with Conscription.
Tycho Brahe’s Observatory
Requires Astronomical Telescope/advanced Astronomy. Provides ++ Research in Explore category in city where built, + research in entire Civ. Never Obsolete
Lloyd’s Insurance Underwriters
Requires Statistics/Economics. Provides + Gold from all Trade. Never Obsolete
Royal Society
Requires Scientific Method/Age of Reason. Provides + research in all categories in entire Civ. Never Obsolete.
Diderot’s Encyclopedia
Requires Age of Reason/Rationalism. Allows 2 immediate Advances, from 2 separate categories. One time effect. (Makes a good replacement for Darwin in CivII)
Great General Staff
Requires Conscription. Provides all Veteran (or Higher Morale/Experience) Generals and Units. Allows units to Push (extra move) 25-50% more effectively. Never Obsolete.
Nobel’s Institute
Requires Explosives. Provides + research in all categories except Conquer in own civ plus All Civs in peaceful contact, + Happiness, + Diplomacy/Relations in civ where built. Never Obsolete.
Edison’s Laboratory (or Nakamatsu’s Workshop)
Requires Electricity. Provides ++ research in all categories in city where built. Never Obsolete.
Internet
Requires Solid State Electronics/Computers. Provides + research in all categories in all civs in contact, ++ Research in own civ, Never Obsolete
Ford’s River Rouge Plant
Requires Production Line. Provides + Production in all Factories in Civ, ++ Production in city where built. Never Obsolete
National Agency (KGB, CIA, MI5/6)
Requires Satelites, Comm-Links. Provides + Intel on all other Civs, + Nat versus spies in all own cities. Never Obsolete.
Hollywood
Requires Mass Media/Television. Provides + Hap in entire Civ, + Gold from all other civs with Mass Media. Never Obsolete
GULAG
Requires Totalitarian state structure, Provides + Public Works in all cities in civ, - Hap in same civ. Never Obsolete, but cannot be built by any civ other than Totalitarian, is lost if civ changes to other form. Once lost, can be rebuilt by any other Totalitarian structure civ.

Special Projects:
Great Irrigation Dam
Requires Stonework/Masonry or Concrete and river location. Provides irrigation Terrain Improvement to all eligible tiles from city where built to the sea along river. Never Obsolete. Possible names include: Ma’rib, Aswan, Three Gorges, Grand Coulee, Itaipu
Great Hydroelectric Dam
Requires Electricity, Concrete, Explosives. Provides all beneifts from Irrigation Dam plus acts as Power Plant to all cities on same continent. Never Obsolete. Possible names include: Hoover, Aswan, Three Gorges, Boulder
CCC (Conscripted Public Works) (includes TVA)
Requires Mass Media. Provides + Public Works in all cities in civ, - Taxes in Republic or Democracy. May be voluntarily stopped/disbanded at any time, otherwise Never Obsolete.
Great Canal
Requires Canal-Building (Explosives, Steam Engine to build through hills or between ocean/seas). Provides + Trade along entire river when built along river, or allows one tile of city radius to be converted from land to sea and + trade in city. Never Obsolete. Possible names include: Suez, Kiel, Panama, Grand, White Sea, Volga, Trans-Danubian
Defensive Works:
Requires Masonry/Advanced Stonework. Provides +50% effects of City Walls and + Happiness in city where built. Only one per civilization. Obsolete with Advance: Bombard/Ramparts (gunpowder-era fortifications and cannon) Possible names include: Walls of, Citadel of, Tower of, Castle of as in Walls of Constantinople, Osaka, Edo, Dover Castles, Tower of London, Citadel of Novgorod, etc.
Polders
Requires Pumps. Provides conversion of any desired tiles in city radius from sea/water into land. resulting land tiles are Grasslands with + Food production. Never Obsolete.
Pipeline
Requires Pumps, Refining, Steel. Allows city where built to use resources of Oil tile outside city radius. Never Obsolete. Possible names include: Alaskan, Arabian, Danube-Volga
Trans-Continental Railroad
Requires Railroad. Allows port city where built to connect with another port city on another ocean by railroad, traced over map when project completed. + gold from trade in both cities. Never Obsolete. Possible names include: Union Pacific, Canadian National/Pacific, Trans-Siberian
Area 51/SETI (use either title)
Requires Rocketry, Radar. Provides + research in Explore, Conquer categories in city where built. Obsolete with Alien Contact (if game extends into future, otherwise Never Obsolete)
Clock Tower (Big Ben)
Requires Mechanical Clock. Provides + Trade/Gold in city where built, can only be built in capital.Never Obsolete.
Chunnel
Requires Explosives, Laser. Provides rail route under up to 2 tiles of sea/ocean in radius of city where built, +gold from trade in city. Never Obsolete.
Tallest Structure:
Requires Concrete, Steel. Provides + Hap, + gold in city where built. Never obsolete, but effect halved when next such structure built -only one per city allowed. Possible names include: Chrysler Building, Empire State, World Trade Center, Sears Tower, Petronas Towers
Voyage of Discovery:
Requires ship and/or explorer unit, assign units to Project with shields spent. Units disappear, X turns later appear with knowledge. Types of Discovery:
Circumnavigation: traces route by sea around the world, route appears on owning civ’s map.
Arctic/Antarctic: traces entire edge of top or bottom of map, shows edges on civ’s map.
New Lands: traces route to edge of land mass not occupied by own civ.
New Peoples: traces route to civ not contacted by own civ.
In all cases, receive + Research in Explore category during period of the Voyage in entire civ. Never Obsolete, but if no new lands or new civs, no effect. Circumnavigation can only be done once.Possible names: Magellan’s Expedition, Marco Polo, Vasco da Gama, Byrd’s Expedition, etc.
World’s Fair, Great Exposition (recurring)
Requires Electricity for Exposition, changes to World’s Fair after Mass Media developed. Provides + gold, + Happiness in city where built, which lasts until next Exposition or Fair built. Only one per city allowed. Never Obsolete.
Manhatten Project
Requires Nuclear Fission. Provides for construction of nuclear weapons by civ owning city where built. X turns later (depending on contacts, diplomacy, espionage factors) other civs get same capability.
Apollo Program
Requires Rocketry. Provides + Hap in entire civ for X turns, one immedsiate advance in Explore category, allows Satelites to be launched by civ. Can only be built once.
Hubble Telescope
Requires Rocketry, Composite Materials. Provides + research in Build, Explore categories. Never Obsolete. (If part of game, + research also towards Alien Encounter)
SDI
Requires Rocketry, Digital Communications, Lasers. Provides Defense against Satelite, Nuclear rocket weapons in all civ cities: cost is based on number of cities defended. Never Obsolete.
Human Genome Project
Requires Genetic Engineering, Computers. Provides + Hap, + research in Growth category in entire civ. Never Obsolete.

Ideals:
Heroic Epic
Requires Epic Poetry/Writing. Provides + Hap in entire civ. Obsolete with Mass Media. Possible names include: Illiad, Beowulf, Gilgamesh, Tale of the Genji, Eddas
Holy City/Shrine
Requires Ceremonial Burial, State Religion. When built, city becomes center for religion in the civ, gets + Hap, + Population growth. Never Obsolete unless religion changes. Possible names include:
Dome of the Rock, Great Temple, Kaaba, St Peter’s, St Basil’s, Hagia Sophia, Ise Shrine
Center of Worship
Requires Architecture. Doubles effect of cathedral in city where built. Never Obsolete, but effect null if State Religion = Atheistic. Possible names include: Mont St Michel, Notre Dame, Parthenon, Abu Simbel, Mikal Temples, Angkor Wat, Borobudur Temple, Stupa of the Wild Goose, Shwedagon Pagoda, Ziggurat of Ur, Kamakura Buddha, Great Serpent Mound
Good To Be King (Magnificence)
Requires Architecture. Built only in capital, one per civ. When built, + Nat in entire civ, + Gold in city where built, - Tax in entire civ. Never Obsolete, but effects halved in Republic or Democracy. Possible names include: Sphinx, Petra, Palace of Persepolis,Labyrinth,Versailles, Buckingham Palace,Taj Mahal,
Forbidden City (or Summer Palace), Eiffel Tower, Washington Monument, Kremlin
Women’s Suffrage
Requires Electricity, Corporation, or Mass Media, can only be built by Republic or Democracy (representative government type). Provides + Hap in entire civilization where built, after X turns may be adopted by other representative government civs, which get 1/2 effect. Never Obsolete, but effects lost if government changes to non-representative (Despot, Monarchy, Totalitarian, Theocracy)
Emancipation Proclamation
Requires Mass Literacy, Rationalism. Provides freedom for all slaves in civ, + Taxes in civ (more taxpaying citizens now!), + Diplomacy/Relations with all other non-slaving states/civs. Once built by anyone, all slaving states receive - Hap, - Diplomacy. May be built in any type of civ, but more costly in Monarchy or Despotism.
Great Exchange
Requires Corporation, Capitalist economic system. Provides + Economy in entire civ, + Gold and + Eco in city where built. Only one per civ, and effects 0 in Communist or other Planned Economy, 1/2 in more primitive Free economies. Never Obsolete. Possible names include: Amsterdam Bourse, London, New York, Hong Kong, Tokyo, etc.Stock Exchange, Board of Trade, Commodities Market, Wall Street
Olympic Games
Requires Ceremonial Burial, Calendar. See separate posts, which went into great detail on the effects, ancient and modern, of this Ideal.
Geneva Convention
Requires Machine-Gun. Once built, Atrocity will be invoked against any civ using poison gas, nukes, destroying cities, etc, resulting in - Relations/diplomacy between them and all other civs. Never Obsolete.
United Nations
Requires International Law. Civ building it receives + Senate support, + Diplomatic/relations with all states joining. Any state /civ joining receives 1/2 of Senate effect, Atrocity can be invoked against any non-member civ attacking a member civ.
NOTE: Atrocity means severe negative Diplomatic effects, probable declaration of war by other civs on the atrocity-committing civ, cutting or reducing effects of alliances and treaties with it. It is a modern convention, not applicable before Industrial period (Advance: Rationalism possibly).
Other note: Whenever multiple names are listed for a Project or Ideal construction, you choose which one you are building at the start. If someone else finishes it first, you lose 1/2 the Resource Points/Shields invested and pick another name. The suggested names given are just that (most are from other people's lists and Posts): Suggestions. Ideally, each category should have enough names for 7-10 civilizations, so no Civ gets 'frozen out' of builds.
Also, each different name should have an appropriate graphic still attached, which would be displayed when finihsed and possibly posted in your city scape (if the game keeps the city scape, which was, admittedly, pretty lame in CivII). As still images, this shouldn't tax the art department too much...

[mzilikazi]

I posted a proposal just before the list disappeared for more sub-Saharan African wonders (and Civs) - one example being the buildings of Great Zimbabwe, near Masvingo in (oddly enough) modern-day Zimbabwe. These are the remnants of the capital city of the great Medieaval civilisation of Monomotapa in southern Africa. Effects: either Granaries everywhere (like Pyramids) or reduction of effect on citizen unhappiness due to distance from capital.
also include; Kariba Dam (alternative name for Hoover/Aswan/...)
San / Bushman Paintings - very early wonder: temple in every city. Requires "Art" advance.
Rugby World Cup (maybe??!!) (ie as in south Africa 1995) is a modern wonder - reduces discontent - perhaps it gives a stadium in every city?

[EnochF]

Thanks guys . Now if only Metamorph would re-post his Ideals proposal, we've got most of the important ones...

This'll teach me... I've been steadily saving backups of the Terrain thread lately, but now I'll stay on top of Wonders as well.

[EnochF]

Oh, crap, now what happened... yeah, I noticed the same thing as Jon Miller last night. When I clicked on the thread now called "10:31" with the various headers mixed up, I got a two-page thread. The first page had the first 50 posts of Wonders, and the second page had M@ni@c's post and maybe one other, but now that data seems to have snuffed it... I'll check through my data cache...

[EnochF]

Okay, okay. Guys, I have some good news... and some bad news. The good news is that Jon Miller was right, and I did have that first page of ideas in my temporary data cache. That means I was able to salvage the first 50 posts from the Wonders thread. The last 25 or so are lost.

Of the ones I saved, most of the suggestions were by Darkstarr, Scooter, Theben, NotLikeTea, Eggman, Andy B, Harel and Ecce Homo.

I'd like to know if anybody has an old cached copy of page 2, but I'm not really expecting anything... in order such a cache to exist, we'll need somebody who has read page 2 recently, but not within the past three or four days.

[Theben]

I guess this is the new wonder thread. One idea of mine never made it into the 1st List.

New King Richarde's Crusade:

Bonus to MORALE of all land units. Cumulative with other military wonders. All your cities receive +1 trade if has temple, +2 with cathedral, +3 with both (pilgrimage routes). Increased chance of tech diffusion vs. civs you're at war with. Available with chivalry, ends with conscription (or you can stretch it to mobile warfare).