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<U>ECONMICS/THREAD SUMMARY 1.2</U>
Hello everyone! I am now the new thread master of Economics and trade. I hope we can continue the excellent work of Pythogras. In order to put things into speed, I posted here the old summary I was asked to create by Yin a few days ago.
I intend to change this model, to a more easier to read and manage thread, with more elborate summaries of the great ideas people suggested.
Expect that in the upcoming 1.3.
In the mean time, take the time to read what we have now. If I missed something, as ever give me a howler.
A. Economical concepts
B. Carvan issue.
C. People quotes.
D. List of thanks.
<u>A. Economical concepts</u>
1. Having a number of key materials per Era ( copper, oil, etc. ). If you lack enough of those materials you gain minuses to production. Only the used materials for the Era are showen up on the map. You may trade resources with other civ's. ( Eggman, Korn469 )
2. Having a budget screen. The usefulness of city improvements are decided by a Tax slide: how much money you put in Eduction dictates the bonus gain per schools, etc. Military is divided between the upkeep of the units, and give minus/bonus to morale. Wealthfare money gives extra happiness. In democracy / Rebpulic, the Sanete may demend minimum budgets to some parts. ( Harel )
3. Having 3 global types of resources: Fuel, building matertials and exotic, instead of shields. Works in other ways like idea number 1. ( Flavor Dave )
4. Economy model should be like Imperlism, you find the resources with a
Geologist unit, then build roads to the patch and build "mining buiding" on
the patch and move the resource to the closest city. ( Colon )
5. Besides resources, a consideration to the processing ( industry ) has to
be notice as it's the main issue in economy.( Colon )
6. You should be able to trade with barbains. ( Diodorus Sicilus )
7. Some nations based soley on trade. It should get much bigger economical
bonus from trade routes. ( Diodorus Sicilus )
8. The more types of luxury goods you have, the happier the people are. Trade goods should be seperated from gold and have four main type of luxury items. Also, combing many food sorts will give a happiness bonus. ( Ecce Homo, Korn469, Stefu )
9. You should be able to be a third-side trader contractor: be able to ship resources for some civ to another civ, gaining a small percentile of the money yourself ( Holland traded for most of eastern europe in the past. ( Harel, Mindlace, Diodoros Sicilus )
10. City should be able to build several things at the same time ( with sliders to refelt percents of labor ). ( Korn469 )
11. Have a new type of civlian: builder. ( Korn469 )
12. Base/City squres don't produce anything, they give a bonus to outlaying squares. ( Korn469 )
13. Each city can build as many Improvements as it has Population, with perhaps a bonus at the start so you aren't stuck with only one or two improvements for umpteen early turns - each city could start with a Base Number of improvements you can build. ( Diodorus Sicilus )
14. The number of tile used should be as the city size, not size+1. ( Isle )
15. City should be depended on one another, like in modern economy. Be able to group cities to a shared pool of resource and support. ( Druid, Hans2 )
16. Having "contracts" to reduce micro-manage. ( Don don )
17. Have commodities, like in Colonization. Have around 10 resources and 10 finished goods and revolve the economy around them. They are replaced with more fitting ones along history and deplet over time. ( Don don, Bulrathi, Diodorus Sicilus, Zorloc )
18. Be able to build docks, airports and the like in other country area by being a sum of money. ( Trachymr )
19. Have "two" level of trade - internal and forgien. Forgien will be automatic, ala MOO and internal economy will be based on commodities. ( Fugi the Great )
20. Trade advisors, like SMAC governors will automaticly control all trade. ( Fugi the great )
21. Trade will also generate shields ( production ), not only trade arrows ( CapTVK )
22. If you have commodites, controling most of the world supply of a certain item allows you to get more money for it, Monopol of the market. ( Pythagoras )
23. The type of Goverment and Market status dictate the control on your trade, and the income gotten from it. ( Pythagoras )
24. Black market: automatic caravans created in cities with a high criminality, or to trade goods which are greatly lack, or trade routes with enemies. You gain no income, and it's a drain on your trade cause it lower the income of your trade. Needs military units to destroy. ( Pythagoras )
25. You can build trading posts, which act as airports and fortress ( maybe give a small bonus to trade in near by cities? ). built by explorers. ( Flavor dave )
26. Spys can destory trade routes. ( Flavor dave )
<u>B. Carvan ( only trade ) issues:</u>
1. Have the trading bonus relate to supply and demand. ( Bubba )
2. Have an more expensive sort of caravan which delivers finished goods, not materials, and give a bigger bonus. ( Bubba )
3. Having pirating and pillaging the trade routes, ala CtP. ( Bubba, DanS )
4. Caravans automaticly move back and forth, not just trade routes. ( Pythagoras )
5. Carvans need to evolve along history, with sea and air types. ( Pythagoras )
6. Trade should be a part of diplomacy, automaticly created a "carvan" building contract. Good trade will increase the level of diplomatic connections. ( Pythagoras, Hans2 )
7. War should cancel all trade bonues. ( Jele2 )
8. Be able to give military protection to carvans by arming them. ( bab5tm )
9. Have air-lift carvan which can help besieged cities ( give them less damage from artilery, you get a trade bonus, civ attitude to you is better ). ( EnochF, Harel )
10. Have SMAC-type way-points for carvans. ( Trachmyr )
11. Have a MOOII trade, gaining an automatic money&Science bonus, no caravans. ( Prefect )
12. Once a caravan is built, he is automaticly sent to the most profitable
town, and gives and automatic bonus ( no actul movement ). ( Harel )
13. Caravans act like spies and show parts of the other-side maps. ( Utrecht )
14. Caravans are automaticly built by the AI, and sent. The entire trade process is done by the computer for you, a bit like SMAC. ( Lancer, Pythagoras )
15. Be able to hire caravans, and get a percent of the income. ( Trachymr )
16. If you enable free-market SE, some of the caravans will belong to a private company, and you get a percent of the income by tax. ( Ecce home, Harel )
17. A new wonder that will increase the movement rate of caravans. ( Flavor Dave )
18. A new city improvement to increase the output of caravans ( Diodoros Sicilus )
<u>C. People quotes:</u>
"With just two or three materials per era, this could do a good job of simulating the need for vital materials. If you can't get them (see Japan after the US cut off its oil supply in WWII) you are going to fall behind which forces war. It also allows a civ to capture and/or cut off key materials and devastate a civ economically. Run out of oil - production drops by 50% - OUCH!Stockpiling in case of war is a good idea too. Plus, the demand for those key materials would grow as the civilization gets bigger (more cities) so you would need to make sure that you can secure those resources to expand"
( Eggman )
"Actually, from the beginning civilizations had to trade for critical materials: copper and tin are relatively rare as recoverable deposits, but they are both required for Bronze. The bronze age in Europe was marked by long-range trade in tin, all the way from Cornwall in England to the Mediterranean. The trick is that most of this early trade was not with other (rival) civilizations, but with what, in game terms, are 'barbarians'. Give us more flexibile barbarians, who sometimes trade because ( for instance ) they've got the tin you need and you've got civilized goods like wine that they want, and you can put critical resources into the Trade System and realisticaly spread over the map and still not cripple some resource-deprived civ from the start. Also, in most of those early trades, the civ got the better of it, in that they also made money in the trading".
( Diodoros Sicilus )
"Resource Development: In order to develop your resources, you use special units similar to the settler units of Civilization. You start out with a prospector and an engineer. The prospector searches for various minerals that can be found in the hills and mountains, and the engineer builds railroads and ports that are necessary to transfer those goods to the capital. Unlike Civilization, virtually all your production is centralized at the capital. Thus, in order for those resources to be of any use to you, you must have a path, either by sea or by railroad, to your capital. Later in the game, as your technology advances, you gain the ability to build additional units which can further improve on your resource squares."
( Colon )
"For Civ this could work by having 10 raw materials, and 10 manufactured goods. All of these will be shared between all of your cities. Then to trade, you make an agreement with another Civ (similar to CTP) and a caravan creates a trade route from your closest city to their closest city. Then your caravan (or whatever) will travel this path continuously - and can be pirated."
( Zorloc )
"Why not have a real budget in civ III? For example, let's take hospitel. Each one, takes lets say 2 gold per turn? Why not have an advanced budget section, when you have "Health care". Here you allocate a budget that is shared between ALL hospitels in the empire. The more money is per hospitel, the more useful it will be. The more useful is will be, the happier people will be and will live longer. Same thing with schools ( "Education" section ), that will decide how much +% to research it gives, army which decided how useful the units will be ( a minus if support per-unit is below standard, a plus if above, etc ). You can even have the council fight for different increase in sections. In the realigon section, someone said that the popes ( or other big-shots ) of the religon would be like civ's inside your civ, you will need to debate with them. Let's show up how terrible are the democartical struggle for budgeting in civ III. Each party would demand something else... This could be fun...
( Harel )
"I think the trading from both SMAC and Imperialism should be used. The basic average everyday items that get traded if ou are a friend of another nation should be automatic like in SMAC. Then there are certain commodities like wheat - bread, oil -petroleam, iron ore-steel-guns, uranium - plutonium ... that should be traded on the market like in Imperialism ( the important things you need to grow a nation / empire ). You could then do what the US does with Russia now with the selling of wheat to them when they have a surplus. Could also get food if there is a major famine in your country. Trading for oil like the world does with OPEC. If you don't have oil, tanks don't move and planes don't fly; so make sure you have enough to get you through a war - don't be stuck like Germany or Japan in WWII. Iron ore/steel production with different nations trying to corner the market or dumping it on other countries to kill their industries ( Japan was accused of this ). If you don't have steel, then you don't make tanks or factories. If you don't have uranium to make plutonium, then you don't make nukes, try getting it in trade or on the black market. Not every nation on this planet is blessed with an abundance of goods. Countries like Japan have to rely on the exports of other countries to stay alive."
( Fugi the great )
"Please, please, Please no comodities as in Colonization. This system is ok with a very few "centers", but putting a system with detailed commodities in a many-centers (cities here) game like civ produces mind-numbing amounts of micromanagement. I intentionally would stop expanding in Colonization (even though I would have liked to strategically ) because the micromanagement burden became rapidly intolerable after about 10 cities."
( Mark_everson )
"Having industry treated like it is in Imperialism is a VERY BAD IDEA. I like Imperialism but in that game the economics are the main focus. Not so in Civ. Considering that in my experience Imp1 games tend to last a whole lot longer than Civ2 games, having a complex economic model in Civ3 will make the game unplayable. You know that joke that if you want realism in Civ, you should play two turns and then die of old age? Well, that wouldn't be too far from the truth."
( Eggman )
"If you have several Production Improvements ( Barracks, Armories, or Logistics Depots for military units, Mills, Factories, Robotic Plants for equipment, Shipyards for ships, etc ) you can build one New Thing for each such improvement OR you can combine several such to build one thing faster. Each Improvement would add to the cities total Manufacturing Points, which could be divided or applied as wished.This would also allow/cause you to concentrate the production of certain cities: you would tend to have, as countries' did historically, a Steel City that cranked out all the heavy stuff (artillery, tanks, etc), a University Town whose points all went into Schools, Science Parks, Universities - Research, and perhaps an Artistic City ( Athens? ) in which the points went into Happiness / Cultural improvements that affect the entire civilization's Happiness/Contenment ratings."
( Diodorus Sicilus )
"What do you think of putting these materials into a generic form--fuel, metals, maybe two more? Also, in every "age", where each of these generic goods are concentrated would change, to reflect the evolution from wood to coal to oil to nuclear power."
( Flavor Dave )
<u>D. List of thanks:</u>
Special thanks: Pythagoras
Eggman, Ecce Homo, Harel, Bulrathi, Bab5tm, Korn469, Lancer, Matthew, Don don, Mark_everson, Trachymr, Mindlace, CapTVK, Stefu, Fugi the Great, Itokugawa, JamesJKirk, VaderTwo, EnochF, Croxis, Delcuze, Kerris, DanS, Didorus Sicilus, NotLikeTea, Flavor Dave, Hans2, Colon, Bubba, Druid, Prefect, Isle, Utrecht, Jele2
<font size=1 color=444444>[This message has been edited by Harel (edited June 24, 1999).]</font>
Hello everyone! I am now the new thread master of Economics and trade. I hope we can continue the excellent work of Pythogras. In order to put things into speed, I posted here the old summary I was asked to create by Yin a few days ago.
I intend to change this model, to a more easier to read and manage thread, with more elborate summaries of the great ideas people suggested.
Expect that in the upcoming 1.3.
In the mean time, take the time to read what we have now. If I missed something, as ever give me a howler.
A. Economical concepts
B. Carvan issue.
C. People quotes.
D. List of thanks.
<u>A. Economical concepts</u>
1. Having a number of key materials per Era ( copper, oil, etc. ). If you lack enough of those materials you gain minuses to production. Only the used materials for the Era are showen up on the map. You may trade resources with other civ's. ( Eggman, Korn469 )
2. Having a budget screen. The usefulness of city improvements are decided by a Tax slide: how much money you put in Eduction dictates the bonus gain per schools, etc. Military is divided between the upkeep of the units, and give minus/bonus to morale. Wealthfare money gives extra happiness. In democracy / Rebpulic, the Sanete may demend minimum budgets to some parts. ( Harel )
3. Having 3 global types of resources: Fuel, building matertials and exotic, instead of shields. Works in other ways like idea number 1. ( Flavor Dave )
4. Economy model should be like Imperlism, you find the resources with a
Geologist unit, then build roads to the patch and build "mining buiding" on
the patch and move the resource to the closest city. ( Colon )
5. Besides resources, a consideration to the processing ( industry ) has to
be notice as it's the main issue in economy.( Colon )
6. You should be able to trade with barbains. ( Diodorus Sicilus )
7. Some nations based soley on trade. It should get much bigger economical
bonus from trade routes. ( Diodorus Sicilus )
8. The more types of luxury goods you have, the happier the people are. Trade goods should be seperated from gold and have four main type of luxury items. Also, combing many food sorts will give a happiness bonus. ( Ecce Homo, Korn469, Stefu )
9. You should be able to be a third-side trader contractor: be able to ship resources for some civ to another civ, gaining a small percentile of the money yourself ( Holland traded for most of eastern europe in the past. ( Harel, Mindlace, Diodoros Sicilus )
10. City should be able to build several things at the same time ( with sliders to refelt percents of labor ). ( Korn469 )
11. Have a new type of civlian: builder. ( Korn469 )
12. Base/City squres don't produce anything, they give a bonus to outlaying squares. ( Korn469 )
13. Each city can build as many Improvements as it has Population, with perhaps a bonus at the start so you aren't stuck with only one or two improvements for umpteen early turns - each city could start with a Base Number of improvements you can build. ( Diodorus Sicilus )
14. The number of tile used should be as the city size, not size+1. ( Isle )
15. City should be depended on one another, like in modern economy. Be able to group cities to a shared pool of resource and support. ( Druid, Hans2 )
16. Having "contracts" to reduce micro-manage. ( Don don )
17. Have commodities, like in Colonization. Have around 10 resources and 10 finished goods and revolve the economy around them. They are replaced with more fitting ones along history and deplet over time. ( Don don, Bulrathi, Diodorus Sicilus, Zorloc )
18. Be able to build docks, airports and the like in other country area by being a sum of money. ( Trachymr )
19. Have "two" level of trade - internal and forgien. Forgien will be automatic, ala MOO and internal economy will be based on commodities. ( Fugi the Great )
20. Trade advisors, like SMAC governors will automaticly control all trade. ( Fugi the great )
21. Trade will also generate shields ( production ), not only trade arrows ( CapTVK )
22. If you have commodites, controling most of the world supply of a certain item allows you to get more money for it, Monopol of the market. ( Pythagoras )
23. The type of Goverment and Market status dictate the control on your trade, and the income gotten from it. ( Pythagoras )
24. Black market: automatic caravans created in cities with a high criminality, or to trade goods which are greatly lack, or trade routes with enemies. You gain no income, and it's a drain on your trade cause it lower the income of your trade. Needs military units to destroy. ( Pythagoras )
25. You can build trading posts, which act as airports and fortress ( maybe give a small bonus to trade in near by cities? ). built by explorers. ( Flavor dave )
26. Spys can destory trade routes. ( Flavor dave )
<u>B. Carvan ( only trade ) issues:</u>
1. Have the trading bonus relate to supply and demand. ( Bubba )
2. Have an more expensive sort of caravan which delivers finished goods, not materials, and give a bigger bonus. ( Bubba )
3. Having pirating and pillaging the trade routes, ala CtP. ( Bubba, DanS )
4. Caravans automaticly move back and forth, not just trade routes. ( Pythagoras )
5. Carvans need to evolve along history, with sea and air types. ( Pythagoras )
6. Trade should be a part of diplomacy, automaticly created a "carvan" building contract. Good trade will increase the level of diplomatic connections. ( Pythagoras, Hans2 )
7. War should cancel all trade bonues. ( Jele2 )
8. Be able to give military protection to carvans by arming them. ( bab5tm )
9. Have air-lift carvan which can help besieged cities ( give them less damage from artilery, you get a trade bonus, civ attitude to you is better ). ( EnochF, Harel )
10. Have SMAC-type way-points for carvans. ( Trachmyr )
11. Have a MOOII trade, gaining an automatic money&Science bonus, no caravans. ( Prefect )
12. Once a caravan is built, he is automaticly sent to the most profitable
town, and gives and automatic bonus ( no actul movement ). ( Harel )
13. Caravans act like spies and show parts of the other-side maps. ( Utrecht )
14. Caravans are automaticly built by the AI, and sent. The entire trade process is done by the computer for you, a bit like SMAC. ( Lancer, Pythagoras )
15. Be able to hire caravans, and get a percent of the income. ( Trachymr )
16. If you enable free-market SE, some of the caravans will belong to a private company, and you get a percent of the income by tax. ( Ecce home, Harel )
17. A new wonder that will increase the movement rate of caravans. ( Flavor Dave )
18. A new city improvement to increase the output of caravans ( Diodoros Sicilus )
<u>C. People quotes:</u>
"With just two or three materials per era, this could do a good job of simulating the need for vital materials. If you can't get them (see Japan after the US cut off its oil supply in WWII) you are going to fall behind which forces war. It also allows a civ to capture and/or cut off key materials and devastate a civ economically. Run out of oil - production drops by 50% - OUCH!Stockpiling in case of war is a good idea too. Plus, the demand for those key materials would grow as the civilization gets bigger (more cities) so you would need to make sure that you can secure those resources to expand"
( Eggman )
"Actually, from the beginning civilizations had to trade for critical materials: copper and tin are relatively rare as recoverable deposits, but they are both required for Bronze. The bronze age in Europe was marked by long-range trade in tin, all the way from Cornwall in England to the Mediterranean. The trick is that most of this early trade was not with other (rival) civilizations, but with what, in game terms, are 'barbarians'. Give us more flexibile barbarians, who sometimes trade because ( for instance ) they've got the tin you need and you've got civilized goods like wine that they want, and you can put critical resources into the Trade System and realisticaly spread over the map and still not cripple some resource-deprived civ from the start. Also, in most of those early trades, the civ got the better of it, in that they also made money in the trading".
( Diodoros Sicilus )
"Resource Development: In order to develop your resources, you use special units similar to the settler units of Civilization. You start out with a prospector and an engineer. The prospector searches for various minerals that can be found in the hills and mountains, and the engineer builds railroads and ports that are necessary to transfer those goods to the capital. Unlike Civilization, virtually all your production is centralized at the capital. Thus, in order for those resources to be of any use to you, you must have a path, either by sea or by railroad, to your capital. Later in the game, as your technology advances, you gain the ability to build additional units which can further improve on your resource squares."
( Colon )
"For Civ this could work by having 10 raw materials, and 10 manufactured goods. All of these will be shared between all of your cities. Then to trade, you make an agreement with another Civ (similar to CTP) and a caravan creates a trade route from your closest city to their closest city. Then your caravan (or whatever) will travel this path continuously - and can be pirated."
( Zorloc )
"Why not have a real budget in civ III? For example, let's take hospitel. Each one, takes lets say 2 gold per turn? Why not have an advanced budget section, when you have "Health care". Here you allocate a budget that is shared between ALL hospitels in the empire. The more money is per hospitel, the more useful it will be. The more useful is will be, the happier people will be and will live longer. Same thing with schools ( "Education" section ), that will decide how much +% to research it gives, army which decided how useful the units will be ( a minus if support per-unit is below standard, a plus if above, etc ). You can even have the council fight for different increase in sections. In the realigon section, someone said that the popes ( or other big-shots ) of the religon would be like civ's inside your civ, you will need to debate with them. Let's show up how terrible are the democartical struggle for budgeting in civ III. Each party would demand something else... This could be fun...
( Harel )
"I think the trading from both SMAC and Imperialism should be used. The basic average everyday items that get traded if ou are a friend of another nation should be automatic like in SMAC. Then there are certain commodities like wheat - bread, oil -petroleam, iron ore-steel-guns, uranium - plutonium ... that should be traded on the market like in Imperialism ( the important things you need to grow a nation / empire ). You could then do what the US does with Russia now with the selling of wheat to them when they have a surplus. Could also get food if there is a major famine in your country. Trading for oil like the world does with OPEC. If you don't have oil, tanks don't move and planes don't fly; so make sure you have enough to get you through a war - don't be stuck like Germany or Japan in WWII. Iron ore/steel production with different nations trying to corner the market or dumping it on other countries to kill their industries ( Japan was accused of this ). If you don't have steel, then you don't make tanks or factories. If you don't have uranium to make plutonium, then you don't make nukes, try getting it in trade or on the black market. Not every nation on this planet is blessed with an abundance of goods. Countries like Japan have to rely on the exports of other countries to stay alive."
( Fugi the great )
"Please, please, Please no comodities as in Colonization. This system is ok with a very few "centers", but putting a system with detailed commodities in a many-centers (cities here) game like civ produces mind-numbing amounts of micromanagement. I intentionally would stop expanding in Colonization (even though I would have liked to strategically ) because the micromanagement burden became rapidly intolerable after about 10 cities."
( Mark_everson )
"Having industry treated like it is in Imperialism is a VERY BAD IDEA. I like Imperialism but in that game the economics are the main focus. Not so in Civ. Considering that in my experience Imp1 games tend to last a whole lot longer than Civ2 games, having a complex economic model in Civ3 will make the game unplayable. You know that joke that if you want realism in Civ, you should play two turns and then die of old age? Well, that wouldn't be too far from the truth."
( Eggman )
"If you have several Production Improvements ( Barracks, Armories, or Logistics Depots for military units, Mills, Factories, Robotic Plants for equipment, Shipyards for ships, etc ) you can build one New Thing for each such improvement OR you can combine several such to build one thing faster. Each Improvement would add to the cities total Manufacturing Points, which could be divided or applied as wished.This would also allow/cause you to concentrate the production of certain cities: you would tend to have, as countries' did historically, a Steel City that cranked out all the heavy stuff (artillery, tanks, etc), a University Town whose points all went into Schools, Science Parks, Universities - Research, and perhaps an Artistic City ( Athens? ) in which the points went into Happiness / Cultural improvements that affect the entire civilization's Happiness/Contenment ratings."
( Diodorus Sicilus )
"What do you think of putting these materials into a generic form--fuel, metals, maybe two more? Also, in every "age", where each of these generic goods are concentrated would change, to reflect the evolution from wood to coal to oil to nuclear power."
( Flavor Dave )
<u>D. List of thanks:</u>
Special thanks: Pythagoras
Eggman, Ecce Homo, Harel, Bulrathi, Bab5tm, Korn469, Lancer, Matthew, Don don, Mark_everson, Trachymr, Mindlace, CapTVK, Stefu, Fugi the Great, Itokugawa, JamesJKirk, VaderTwo, EnochF, Croxis, Delcuze, Kerris, DanS, Didorus Sicilus, NotLikeTea, Flavor Dave, Hans2, Colon, Bubba, Druid, Prefect, Isle, Utrecht, Jele2
<font size=1 color=444444>[This message has been edited by Harel (edited June 24, 1999).]</font>
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